Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[Sergeant Wilson]

I bet the Israeli army don't bother with all that infantry supporting tanks shite. Gaza will get levelled. Then all their tunnels will get firebombed.

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

I bet the Israeli army don't bother with all that infantry supporting tanks shite. Gaza will get levelled. Then all their tunnels will get firebombed.

The problem with tunnels is there’s exactly one way to figure out if you’ve cleared them out, and that involves infantry. You can blow them to hell, but you”re never sure there isn’t an armoured door a few metres away that protects the missile factory that hasn’t been touched. Ground penetrating radar and all that is helpful, but hardly conclusive. Tunnel rat lifespans are not great, booby traps get all but the best, and an enemy willing to collapse an entire tunnel on an attacker can extract a fearsome toll.

[Clangers]

16 hours ago, virginton said:

It is not genocide because there is no evidence that the goal is to literally exterminate the population. 

It is both a state of war and more relevantly a state of siege. The atrocities that you state are undoubtedly happening to some degree - those are war crimes and those are the inevitable result of besieging any significant population centre. A siege is not an attempt to exterminate though: a siege ends with the surrender of the armed force within it. 

Genocide should be viewed asan entirely separate category, though it really doesn't help when roasters have been claiming 'genocide' for the alleged transport of children from one state to another, and even 'ecocide' for blowing up dams etc. It's a term that is fast losing its analytical value and becoming a propaganda term thrown at the enemy. Which will of course enable the next genuine act of genocide to proceed under the cover of spin and exaggeration. 

Genocide is the deliberate destruction, in whole or in part, by a government or its agents, of a racial, sexual, religious, tribal or political minority. It can involve not only mass murder, but also starvation, forced deportation, and political, economic and biological subjugation. Genocide involves three major components: ideology, technology, and bureaucracy/organization

Jack Nusan Porter, Ukrainian American sociologist

I go with genocide from that description 

 

Article 6 of the Rome Statute provides that "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Statute_of_the_International_Criminal_Court
 

looks like the ICC agree

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Clangers

[supermik]

Hamas = c***s.

Israel = Slightly Bigger c***s.

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, coprolite said:

Fair point that Hamas as an organisation won’t negotiate an Israeli state, but Hamas and ordinary Gaza Palestinians aren’t two mutually exclusive immutable blocs. If ordinary Gaza Palestinians don’t join Hamas, there won’t be a Hamas.

They're not mutually exclusive but I think you're overestimating the overlap here. Were the IRA, UVF etc. the representatives of their ordinary community members in Northern Ireland after 1972? I think most people would try to draw at least some distinction between the political/terrorist organisation and the population it rests within. The same principle must surely apply to Gaza and the Palestinian community that lives there. 

[GTee]

I know nothing about much of this. But who or what is Hamas. Is it a political party. Is there a leader. That's not an 'army' to go to war with. A bit like Al Qaeda was supposedly Osama Bin Laden. Not sure about ISIS. But can you go to war with an undefined enemy, which isn't an army. If Israel go for a 'ground war', who are they shooting?. Do Hamas wear uniforms.

The most powerful nation on earth along with us did a great job after 9/11 in Afghanistan.  Well not really. 

Who knows. An overall tragedy

[welshbairn]

Hamas tried all that wishy washy liberal democracy stuff back in 2006 when they stood for election and won, in the West Bank as well as Gaza. The consequences didn't encourage them to try it again. 

https://archive.ph/PAb5x

[orfc]

7 hours ago, Clangers said:

Genocide is the deliberate destruction, in whole or in part, by a government or its agents, of a racial, sexual, religious, tribal or political minority. It can involve not only mass murder, but also starvation, forced deportation, and political, economic and biological subjugation. Genocide involves three major components: ideology, technology, and bureaucracy/organization

Jack Nusan Porter, Ukrainian American sociologist

I go with genocide from that description 

 

Article 6 of the Rome Statute provides that "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Statute_of_the_International_Criminal_Court
 

looks like the ICC agree

 

Well, the Israelis are trying to give fair warning so a) b) don't apply. Given Gaza has one of the highest birth rates in the world and has doubled it's population in 20 years c) d) don't apply and I haven't heard about them doing a Russia and kidnapping kids wholesale so e) doesn't apply.

[coprolite]

1 hour ago, orfc said:

Well, the Israelis are trying to give fair warning so a) b) don't apply. 

Have we established that the reports of airstrikes on evacuating civilians are false then? 

And that "even though there's nowhere to go and you might struggle to get there, you've 24 hours to f**k off or we'll blow you up?" counts as "fair"?

For balance, what Hamas has said it wants to do probably meets the definition of genocide too. But they don't have Western governments cheering them on. 

 

 

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, orfc said:

Well, the Israelis are trying to give fair warning 

Each new degradation comes with its corresponding propaganda to condition you into accepting it. 

[sparky88]

Israel and its supporters seem to want everyone to believe the Israel Palestine conflict started last Saturday.

[Sergeant Wilson]

7 hours ago, GTee said:

 If Israel go for a 'ground war', who are they shooting?.

Everybody.

[101]

8 hours ago, virginton said:

They're not mutually exclusive but I think you're overestimating the overlap here. Were the IRA, UVF etc. the representatives of their ordinary community members in Northern Ireland after 1972? I think most people would try to draw at least some distinction between the political/terrorist organisation and the population it rests within. The same principle must surely apply to Gaza and the Palestinian community that lives there. 

Next time Northern Ireland kicks off we can now expect an indiscriminate bombing campaign.

[Dee Man]

2 hours ago, orfc said:

Well, the Israelis are trying to give fair warning so a) b) don't apply. Given Gaza has one of the highest birth rates in the world and has doubled it's population in 20 years c) d) don't apply and I haven't heard about them doing a Russia and kidnapping kids wholesale so e) doesn't apply.

Expecting 1 million people to shift in 24 hours is fair warning? Tell me how you would go about moving 40000 people per hour in any fully functional city nevermind one where the infrastructure has already been blown to bits. 

[Flybhoy]

In the North of Ireland, peace was achieved only by an extended period of dialogue, by having the right people in place, who were all motivated towards the same goal, and who had the vision, intelligence, instincts, decency, leadership & backing/power to make it happen. 

Even then, it was near impossible, with painful concessions made.

I see none of that in Gaza/Israel. 

Not a single sign of the motivation. No commonality. No shared goal. No leadership. In fact, very much the wrong leadership. 
As it stands, there isn’t even a desire for talks. 
On the Israeli side anyway. 

They’re like the Thatcher government, but with an extremist agenda & goal of ethnic cleansing. 

They hold the cards in respect of initiating dialogue & seeking compromise, or solutions. Problem being, they’re at the table with loaded six guns and the prospect of taking the whole pot if they just open fire on the other players, who have only rocks to throw. 

This will be close to a genocide. It will be done in full view, and with the near full support, of the international community. 
By the time the horror becomes unavoidable from a PR perspective, and Israel has to back off a bit, it will be irreversible & unimaginable carnage.

You hear pro Palestinian commentators talking about an apartheid state. The effect of this will be in full view. The Zionists see the people of Gaza as lesser beings. They do not, in any way, hold their lives equal. 

This will be a targeted ethnic cleansing of the untermensch. 

The irony of this is lost only on the extremist Zionists currently in power in Israel, & their fanatical supporters. 

The rest of us can see it as the abused growing up to become the abuser. If only there weren’t hundreds of thousands of lives at stake it would be a bit sad.

This however, is going to be an unjustifiable war crime, for which current apologists will still be seeking redemption until they die. 
An indelible stain. 
Blair’s Iraq war.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Flybhoy

[Dee Man]

18 minutes ago, Flybhoy said:

In the North of Ireland, peace was achieved only by an extended period of dialogue, by having the right people in place, who were all motivated towards the same goal, and who had the vision, intelligence, instincts, decency, leadership & backing/power to make it happen. 

Even then, it was near impossible, with painful concessions made.

I see none of that in Gaza/Israel. 

Not a single sign of the motivation. No commonality. No shared goal. No leadership. In fact, very much the wrong leadership. 
As it stands, there isn’t even a desire for talks. 
On the Israeli side anyway. 

They’re like the Thatcher government, but with an extremist agenda & goal of ethnic cleansing. 

They hold the cards in respect of initiating dialogue & seeking compromise, or solutions. Problem being, they’re at the table with loaded six guns and the prospect of taking the whole pot if they just open fire on the other players, who have only rocks to throw. 

This will be close to a genocide. It will be done in full view, and with the near full support, of the international community. 
By the time the horror becomes unavoidable from a PR perspective, and Israel has to back off a bit, it will be irreversible & unimaginable carnage.

You hear pro Palestinian commentators talking about an apartheid state. The effect of this will be in full view. The Zionists see the people of Gaza as lesser beings. They do not, in any way, hold their lives equal. 

This will be a targeted ethnic cleansing of the untermensch. 

The irony of this is lost only on the extremist Zionists currently in power in Israel, & their fanatical supporters. 

The rest of us can see it as the abused growing up to become the abuser. If only there weren’t hundreds of thousands of lives at stake it would be a bit sad.

This however, is going to be an unjustifiable war crime, for which current apologists will still be seeking redemption until they die. 
An indelible stain. 
Blair’s Iraq war.

Out of interest, what do you reckon most Palestinian supporting Celtic fan’s take on the Hamas attack would be. 

[vikingTON]

8 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Hamas tried all that wishy washy liberal democracy stuff back in 2006 when they stood for election and won, in the West Bank as well as Gaza. The consequences didn't encourage them to try it again. 

https://archive.ph/PAb5x

Hamas has always been a combination of political party and terrorist organisation. Which isn't unique to them either - the Socialist Revolutionaries did it in Russia before 1917 and Irish Republicanism has its own parallel.

The narrative that Hamas tried peaceful electoral politics and have now resorted to terrorism because of Big, Bad Israel is completely misleading. They've always operated in both spaces - so the causation you're describing does not exist.

[vikingTON]

10 hours ago, Clangers said:

Genocide is the deliberate destruction, in whole or in part, by a government or its agents, of a racial, sexual, religious, tribal or political minority. It can involve not only mass murder, but also starvation, forced deportation, and political, economic and biological subjugation. Genocide involves three major components: ideology, technology, and bureaucracy/organization

Jack Nusan Porter, Ukrainian American sociologist

I go with genocide from that description 

 

Article 6 of the Rome Statute provides that "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Statute_of_the_International_Criminal_Court
 

looks like the ICC agree

 

If I want a credible description of genocide, I wouldn't consult a Ukrainian Armenian sociologist. Let's take just one of those nonsense criteria - we could do the same for the entirely nebulous 'partial' qualifier though. 

Economic/political 'subjugation' is an entirely subjective and utterly ridiculous criteria for 'genocide'. Has Scotland faced economic subjugation in the UK through the exploitation of North Sea oil resources to fund 40 years of Thatcherite policies? Arguably, yes.

Does Scotland experience 'political subjugation' by having its legitimate, democratic mandate for a second independence referendum refused by the Westminster government? Arguably, yes. 

Are Scots therefore the victims of genocide at the hands of the UK government? Unarguably, a fucking nonsense claim. 

This is why we should stop letting loser sociologists and other professional victims try to shift the goalposts to make their chosen group the victims of 'genocide'. It is degrading the most serious crime against humanity into a meaningless propaganda tool. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by vikingTON

[welshbairn]

26 minutes ago, Dee Man said:

Out of interest, what do you reckon most Palestinian supporting Celtic fan’s take on the Hamas attack would be. 

The lads just got a bit carried away.

[Richey Edwards]

53 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The lads just got a bit carried away.

It was some harmless fun that got out of hand.