Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran/Lebanon)

[10menwent2mow]

14 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

"This is the worlds darkest hour".  Absolutely mental rhetoric from the Israeli PM there.

Correct. Has he just conveniently forgotten about the 6 million of his own folk wiped out less than 100 years ago. 

[Billy Jean King]

2 minutes ago, 10menwent2mow said:

Correct. Has he just conveniently forgotten about the 6 million of his own folk wiped out less than 100 years ago. 

His speech gives me the fear. Extremely incendiary stuff good v bad, Islam must be defeated, world on the brink. Grim attempts to widen this specifically aimed at Iran and all in the presence of Sunak & co.

[beefybake]

15 minutes ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

The balance of evidence in terms of the ballistics seem to imply it was in all likelihood a Gazan rocket rather than an Israeli airstrike, however the fact that the Israelis are clearly lying about or embellishing some aspects means you can be forgiven for not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

It’s a bit like the boy who cried wolf I suppose. The IDF have previous for completely making things up and blaming things on Palestinians, with the memory of the Al Jazeera journalist they killed being a perfect example.

 

The first casualty of war is truth, and I don’t think we should take Israeli or Hamas claims at face value as they both have a vested interest in lying about things.

The subject of my comment was a recording. And it was being examined by two experts, Palestinian ( I think ).  Not Hamas.

They also referred to the horizontal arc of the missile that air exploded shortly before, as being not equating to it landing on the hospital.

As I recall, the Ch4 news segment ended with saying that the recording needed independent investigation.

 

Me ?   It seems odd that if either Hamas or Islamic Juhad had access to something that could cause all that damage, they would

have used it long ago, rather than the rockets into Israel that they have typically used which have caused relatively minor damage to buildings,

and very, very occasionally a handful of deaths.

Er, yes, I have heard of the fog of war.

[Leith Green]

18 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Why are Hamas rockets never so effective and accurate when attacking Israel?

Israel has an excellent anti missile defence system - paid for by the USA as it happens.

Its not foolproof, but it captures ~90% of rocket attacks.

Its called Iron Dome, I think?

[Leith Green]

Posted without comment...................

11:53   

Sunak adds that he knows Israel is "taking every precaution to avoid harming civilians in direct contrast to the terrorists of Hamas which seek to put civilians in harm's way".

12:14
Over 3,700 people killed in Gaza - health officials
We've had some updated figures from the health ministry in Gaza, who say at least 3,785 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since Hamas attacked Israel on 7 October.

Among those killed, 1,524 were children, 1,000 were women, and 120 were elderly, they say.

A total of 12,493 have been injured, the health officials added.

[Billy Jean King]

9 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Posted without comment...................

11:53   

Sunak adds that he knows Israel is "taking every precaution to avoid harming civilians in direct contrast to the terrorists of Hamas which seek to put civilians in harm's way".

12:14
Over 3,700 people killed in Gaza - health officials
We've had some updated figures from the health ministry in Gaza, who say at least 3,785 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since Hamas attacked Israel on 7 October.

Among those killed, 1,524 were children, 1,000 were women, and 120 were elderly, they say.

A total of 12,493 have been injured, the health officials added.

I'd hate to see them being indiscriminate  !

[Jaggy McJagface]

14 minutes ago, beefybake said:

The subject of my comment was a recording. And it was being examined by two experts, Palestinian ( I think ).  Not Hamas.

They also referred to the horizontal arc of the missile that air exploded shortly before, as being not equating to it landing on the hospital.

As I recall, the Ch4 news segment ended with saying that the recording needed independent investigation.

 

Me ?   It seems odd that if either Hamas or Islamic Juhad had access to something that could cause all that damage, they would

have used it long ago, rather than the rockets into Israel that they have typically used which have caused relatively minor damage to buildings,

and very, very occasionally a handful of deaths.

Er, yes, I have heard of the fog of war.

I’m not disagreeing with you. The fact the Israelis are clearly lying about the recording is very suspicious. My point is that Israel have previous for lying about things like this and are certainly lying about certain aspects now. They have shown that they certainly don’t mind bombing refugee convoys so I’m not meaning this to come across as a defence of the IDF.

On the other hand, many independent weapons experts seem to think that the crater and surrounding damage isn’t typical of an Israeli air strike and is more likely to be a faulty missile, although most concede it’s hard to say for certain. The fog of war means that we probably won’t know with absolute certainty what happened in this particular instance.

 

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

Why are Hamas rockets never so effective and accurate when attacking Israel?

Because it 1) wasn’t accurate, it hit a parking lot and 2) because parking lots are filed with cars that contain lots of explosive and flammable bits?

Of course, that’s IF it was a misplaced rocket…still unclear, but the only data that comes from both sides and is confirmed by third party pictures is 1) a parking lot, of a hospital, was hit, not the hospital itself, and 2) a small crater was left.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

I mistakenly selected back to the first page of this thread instead of 'previous' and on reading a lot of the posts there from 2008 it's obvious that f**k all has changed, never mind for the better, in the 15 years since.

It's a deadly and depressing situation but what gives me a glimmer of hope is that at my age I've seen seemingly intractable issues eventually alter - Vietnam, the Berlin Wall and (relative) peace in Northern Ireland being the obvious examples.

For the Israel/Palestine war to end though, a starting point must be an end to the unqualified support of Israel routinely parroted by the US, the UK and others, and the eventual establishment of a just settlement in the region.  It would be interesting to gauge Israeli public opinion on that, as opposed to their Government's narrative.  And all of it accompanied by the laying down of Palestinian arms.

If only it were that easy.

[Granny Danger]

35 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I mistakenly selected back to the first page of this thread instead of 'previous' and on reading a lot of the posts there from 2008 it's obvious that f**k all has changed, never mind for the better, in the 15 years since.

It's a deadly and depressing situation but what gives me a glimmer of hope is that at my age I've seen seemingly intractable issues eventually alter - Vietnam, the Berlin Wall and (relative) peace in Northern Ireland being the obvious examples.

For the Israel/Palestine war to end though, a starting point must be an end to the unqualified support of Israel routinely parroted by the US, the UK and others, and the eventual establishment of a just settlement in the region.  It would be interesting to gauge Israeli public opinion on that, as opposed to their Government's narrative.  And all of it accompanied by the laying down of Palestinian arms.

If only it were that easy.

I assume the majority of Israel’s support the present approach.  Sad though that might be.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

2 hours ago, Billy Jean King said:

"This is the worlds darkest hour".  Absolutely mental rhetoric from the Israeli PM there.

When he talked about the U.K. facing Hitler alone eighty years ago he forgot to mention around that time the Jewish terrorists murdering British service people

[Granny Danger]

Don’t know how senior this guy is but it’s a bold and principled move.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/19/politics/state-department-official-resigns-israel-gaza/index.html

State department official resigns.

Decades of the same approach have shown that security for peace leads to neither security, nor to peace. The fact is, blind support for one side is destructive in the long term to the interests of the people on both sides.”

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I mistakenly selected back to the first page of this thread instead of 'previous' and on reading a lot of the posts there from 2008 it's obvious that f**k all has changed, never mind for the better, in the 15 years since.

It's a deadly and depressing situation but what gives me a glimmer of hope is that at my age I've seen seemingly intractable issues eventually alter - Vietnam, the Berlin Wall and (relative) peace in Northern Ireland being the obvious examples.

For the Israel/Palestine war to end though, a starting point must be an end to the unqualified support of Israel routinely parroted by the US, the UK and others, and the eventual establishment of a just settlement in the region.  It would be interesting to gauge Israeli public opinion on that, as opposed to their Government's narrative.  And all of it accompanied by the laying down of Palestinian arms.

If only it were that easy.

Had a quick look back when I read your post and found this. I was no fan of Ron Paul but he's spot on here. From 2009 I think.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by welshbairn

[BFTD]

Just catching up on this thread. I know we're all concerned with thousands of civilians being murdered and the potential of World War III kicking off IRL, but one of the stories flying under the radar appears to be the plight of people who really don't enjoy this forum, and are ruthlessly bombarded with red dots by terrorists from the dreaded P&B administration.

Been a while since we've had a fundraiser, but perhaps it's needed to return them to their natural homeland of the Politics board and enable the purchase of a very small violin in their memory.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

1 hour ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I mistakenly selected back to the first page of this thread instead of 'previous' and on reading a lot of the posts there from 2008 it's obvious that f**k all has changed, never mind for the better, in the 15 years since.

 

Disagree. The thread starter has fucked off, which is a far better position than it was in 2008.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

55 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Don’t know how senior this guy is but it’s a bold and principled move.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/19/politics/state-department-official-resigns-israel-gaza/index.html

State department official resigns.

Decades of the same approach have shown that security for peace leads to neither security, nor to peace. The fact is, blind support for one side is destructive in the long term to the interests of the people on both sides.”

Well, it's a shaft of light at a dark time and fair play to him because it's a brave position to take.  Added to welshbairn's post above maybe we're going to need everyone whose surname is Paul to get involved - that includes you Ru...   

[Freedom Farter]

[Silvio Tattiescone]

Doesn't matter. Israel will say it's Hamas and all those supporting Israel will believe it because they want to believe it. Hamas will say it's Israel and all those supporting Hamas will believe it because they want to believe it.

[oneteaminglasgow]

3 minutes ago, Newbornbairn said:

Doesn't matter. Israel will say it's Hamas and all those supporting Israel will believe it because they want to believe it. Hamas will say it's Israel and all those supporting Hamas will believe it because they want to believe it.

Don’t conflate supporting Palestine with supporting Hamas, please. 

[Doctor Manhattan]

Surely even the biggest w****r in the history of marketing (and that's a fairly crowded field) can't think it's a good idea to parade worried and/or grieving families before the press in front of a bunch of logos for the Tel Aviv Carlton.