Hedgecutter Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 ...and from the "conference" have 3 automatic relegation spots to the three North,East, and West regions and a play off for the runners up in those leagues and the 15th placed team. All fun until two or three of those clubs in the relegation zone are from the same region. I know that a similar problem will potentially occur over the next few seasons if 'Highland' SPFL teams get relegated year after year (creating a larger and larger HL) but three places could just alleviate that risk x3. The alternative in such a setup is relegating the lowest placed 'Highland' side, even if they do happen to finish mid-table (which isn't particularly fair I'm sure you'll agree!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionel hutz Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 All fun until two or three of those clubs in the relegation zone are from the same region. I know that a similar problem will potentially occur over the next few seasons if 'Highland' SPFL teams get relegated year after year (creating a larger and larger HL) but three places could just alleviate that risk x3. The alternative in such a setup is relegating the lowest placed 'Highland' side, even if they do happen to finish mid-table (which isn't particularly fair I'm sure you'll agree!) Eg. if Two North Teams go down and an East team then from the League below one North team would move to the East and one East team to the West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 All fun until two or three of those clubs in the relegation zone are from the same region. I know that a similar problem will potentially occur over the next few seasons if 'Highland' SPFL teams get relegated year after year (creating a larger and larger HL) but three places could just alleviate that risk x3. The alternative in such a setup is relegating the lowest placed 'Highland' side, even if they do happen to finish mid-table (which isn't particularly fair I'm sure you'll agree!) This is why in every many other countries that has regional leagues, Spain, England...there are border areas who's teams can be punted between regions depending on who goes up and comes down. It's not difficult. If, say, a surplus of West teams go up and East teams come down Stirling Uni, East Stirlingshire etc. moves to the West league and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grazza Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I'd go with Premiership 12, Championship 12 (Full time football encouraged but not essential) National league 12 (with 6 in north and 6 in south divisions) - play own division teams 4 times and play other division teams 2 times. I would have highland and lowland champs going up into this. bottom team in north and bottom team in south both go down Prem, Championship (inc Dunfermline, Morton) National North Peterhead, Forfar,Brechin, Arbroath,Stirling, East Fife South - Stranraer, Ayr, annan, Airdrie, Clyde, Stenhousemuir I'd put Montrose and Elgin in Highland, Albion Rovers, East Stirling, Queens Park and Berwick in lowland. These clubs would still be in 4th tier and help beef up that level for prospective teams that can come up and maybe make the lowland more attractive to those on the fence about joining and investing. Not a perfect system but would keep some balance. Would prefer if there was west, East an North north rather than just highland and lowland but not going to happen without juniors buying into pyramid on mass. Stirling or East Fife in highland would be pretty tough going. Though with my proposed changed the highland would be at 20 teams and lowland at 18 so maybe they could go into lowland instead and then the numbers might balance out with the leagues. Though once any league gets to 20 teams or beyond they may need to look at splitting them into tiers as that is a lot of football for part time clubs and probably massive gulf between top and bottom end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 The HL clubs only play each other twice a season though. What about Wick to Annan TWICE a season and if midweek then compensation for players to take the day off of work? There`s no way part time clubs with crowds of only a couple of hundred could afford to play at that level without hand outs. As someone who`s seen it from both sides over the years it does seem wrong that a select few part time clubs get protected from the real world.Its not jealousy its just the way it is but it does need to change. Christ, Wick go to Aberdeen - 205 miles; Inverurie - 190 miles; Pitmedden 195 miles... etc etc etc. Now think about Brora and Fort Bill... too - do I need to go on? They seem to manage, and manage pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I'd go with Premiership 12, Championship 12 (Full time football encouraged but not essential) National league 12 (with 6 in north and 6 in south divisions) - play own division teams 4 times and play other division teams 2 times. Is such a system used anywhere else? Surely a league competition where not all teams (in the same competition throughout) play the same set of fixtures is potentially completely unfair, e.g. Spartans playing more games against 'easier' opposition than Brora would due to the upper half of the HL being superior to the rest of the LL or whatever? The Premiership split is different of course in that the opposition is consistent across all teams pre-split and post-split for the two respective mini-leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankies Alive Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Christ, Wick go to Aberdeen - 205 miles; Inverurie - 190 miles; Pitmedden 195 miles... etc etc etc. Now think about Brora and Fort Bill... too - do I need to go on? They seem to manage, and manage pretty well So add on another 300 miles and do it twice a season and find out the cost to clubs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 So add on another 300 miles and do it twice a season and find out the cost to clubs! The equivalent of two additional coaches over a whole season in the biggest extreme you can find... assuming Annan were in addition to their current workload (which they wouldn't be)... so realistically it would be a single extra journey in what would be a 'richer' league even with cuts. Yes it has cost, but not nearly enough to threaten a club's existence / league status. You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankies Alive Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 You obviously have no clue about clubs finances so I`ll leave you to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 You obviously have no clue about clubs finances so I`ll leave you to it I think they do Bankie. You cannot base an argument for HFL clubs around travel costs. The HFL in its new guise (everything north of the Tay) is a massive area which is hugely underpopulated meaning all clubs already have tremendous distance to cover. They need to build this into existing operating costs and the facts are that they will be subsidised to be part of League 2 or above. However much you dislike the idea of smaller, part time teams playing in a national structure, it is going to remain that way. And, as such, Brora will not suffer financially for moving up the pyramid given that they already have the vast bulk of the required infrastructure already in place. I often see the costs to supporters who wish to follow their team almost becoming a substitute for the costs to the teams themselves. This is why you get very few from Elgin travelling to watch their team playing in Coatbridge on a dreich February afternoon. But - and this is really important - it's very obvious that the vast majority of the supporters of these clubs are content with where their team sits. There is now way that any team from the HFL or LL should be refusing promotion. They accepted the conditions attached to playing in Tier 5. That includes promotion. If you don't want to take the risk, play in a different structure or at a lower level. This is already being done in the Lowlands where Junior teams have voted en masse to stay in their backwater - well away from anything that will demand progress on provision of facilities for players or spectators. In fact, they've managed to find themselves overtaken by a team that didn't exist 6 weeks ago but which has a bit of ambition and a solid community base. It's more than ironic that the team in question is playing out of a junior venue!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 You obviously have no clue about clubs finances so I`ll leave you to it You clearly stated that without the same parachute payments the 'Div1 and Div2' clubs would struggle to cope with their current elevation as travel costs would deal with that. A quick (and yes, rather sad but also out of random interest) count shows me that the Wick bus/coach (which currently operates in a league with even less revenue than a Div1/2 with cuts would) travels ~5200 miles in a Highland League season. Compare that to Brechin which still does more than your average amount of travelling for a 'Div2' team and they only do ~3550. To take the numbers away, if Brechin added four additional return trips to Stranraer, they still wouldn't be travelling as much as Wick currently do already. With those few exceptions though - Peterhead will actually do the most this season (at ~600 more miles than Wick) but that's largely down to their two trips to Stranraer - the furthest possible senior ground they can go to. You're trying to tarnish all the part-time clubs the same brush using the greatest possible extremes across Scotland... with absolutely no evidence that they wouldn't cope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 A few seasons back, when Wick had a midweek replay(?), their Chairman made it known that they had to raise £100,000 a year to maintain themselves. I'll assume that figure included travel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Brora are now saying if they win this season they'll put it to a vote by the fans on whether to go for promotion or not. Sounds like the board is split on the issue. No idea how the SFA or SFPL would react. http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-league-two/284342-brora-rangers-to-let-fans-decide-over-potential-spfl-participation/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter Moving to another league set up is not mandatory. Whilst personally I would like to see another Highland team in the national set up this is a matter that the fans should decide by ballot really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grazza Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Is such a system used anywhere else? Surely a league competition where not all teams (in the same competition throughout) play the same set of fixtures is potentially completely unfair, e.g. Spartans playing more games against 'easier' opposition than Brora would due to the upper half of the HL being superior to the rest of the LL or whatever? The Premiership split is different of course in that the opposition is consistent across all teams pre-split and post-split for the two respective mini-leagues. Not many football examples though MLS does have a conference system. In ice hockey here the 4 Scottish teams are in a northern conference of 5 and it has really boosted the competitiveness of the league and crowds up. That is even at a full time level though in some cases further travel. I just don't see huge benefit in nationwide part time league. A good compromise would be a system like this and make transition between level better less travel and chance of better crowds to boost revenue. We can schedule games like elgin v stranraer at times its much less likely to get called off. Would be more attractive to potential new teams investing and joining pyramid if they could see they would get more local games and build rivalries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Shaker Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 It seems to be mainly the Lossie boys on Fitbanorth arguing for it, and they haven't a chance in hell of going up anyway, they just have a major hatred for Brora, not sure why. Then you have the problem if a Lowland League wins the playoff, and a Highland league team gets demoted from L2, and vice versa. Do you have to wait till the playoff to find out how many teams get demoted from the HL and LL? Mackay's right, they should first regionalise L1 and L2. Excuse me. I'm arguing that the clubs who voted 16-1 for a promotion place follow through with what they voted for. If they didn't want a play-off they should have said so at the vote and left the clubs who DID want to be part of the league ladder to get on with things. Because of this vote, we're saddled with playing 7 league games in August (plus regional cup ties) so we can finish the league season before April 18th. Derbies like Buckie/Vale and Lossie/Forres are now being played in midweek because of this, and clubs are losing out on cash as a result. And for what? What did everyone think was going to happen at the end of this season? The SPFL were going to forget to send us the invite to the play-off games and we'd carry on as in previous seasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 No axe grinding here, but if an LL team wins both play offs (or a bye and a play off ) at the end of the season, and an HL region team gets demoted, will we have a 19 team HL for 2015/16? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 No axe grinding here, but if an LL team wins both play offs (or a bye and a play off ) at the end of the season, and an HL region team gets demoted, will we have a 19 team HL for 2015/16?Potentially, barring an official link up with north juniors or NCL the other options would be electing another side and going 10-10 structure or moving a side into the lowland league(only really sensible if it's one of the Angus sides relegated). I think the latter is the most likely/best option unless it's Elgin relegated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Shaker Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 The SHFL has been made up of any number of sides between 6 and 18. Another mouth to feed wouldn't be too big a deal short term, especially if it was Elgin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Potentially, barring an official link up with north juniors or NCL the other options would be electing another side and going 10-10 structure or moving a side into the lowland league(only really sensible if it's one of the Angus sides relegated). I think the latter is the most likely/best option unless it's Elgin relegated. Going 10-10 is not a fucking option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 I imagine the main problem with 19 would be the need to increase to 38 matchdays, up from 34: they have already loaded quite a few midweek games into the early part of the season, and this would require another 4, unless they started the season earlier. Will both Cove + Fort definetely get their licences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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