Livingston - all the threads merged

[RedV]

Do you have a shred of proof that the SFL did anything of the sort? No, because it is bullshit.

I didn't even bother reading the rest of your shit post, because you are so utterly wrong with your very first point. I absolutely guarantee the SFL did exactly what he said on the steps of Hampden.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Still not learning.

More sanctimonious codswallop from the inbreds.

[RedV]

Are you surprised though?

BTW - last time I was lost for words I gave up taxi-ing. Best thing I ever done.

Paul, out of interest, would you like to see Clydebank back in the SFL or are you genuinely happier where you are?

I've a horrible feeling today's "decision" might be a significant nail in the coffin of Scottish football as we currently know it. It's hard to take it seriously after something like this!

[kiwififer]

I feel your pain, I really do. And I'm loving it

Tomorrow's Sun

You know, if my club was saved at the 11th hour, I wouldn't be on here to gloat. I'd be pretty pissed at the fact that it had got to that point in the first place, but each to their own.

Congrats to Livi fans for survival, losing your club would be high up on the 'pissed off for life' table for me.

But does this not create a mandate to all lower league clubs to run up debts, only to default on payments? Football is not a 'special case', and if a company was run like Livi were/are, they would be bust, no exceptions.

Sorry, but you should have went, and I would still say that if it was my East Fife in the same position.

Edited July 31, 2009 by kiwififer

[Kenny_m]

This rule change seems designed as a way to remove Massone who almost everyone agrees is a nutter!

I'm sure he now definitely not sell his shares and it will end in court and the fact that McDougall and Rankine have decided to throw a substantial amount of money at Livi this will only strengthen his shares value.

I'm a bitter Airdrieonians fan who can't believe that a club who have been in existence for 14 years and ran up debts of almost 1 million per year have been given another chance and with a man who played a part in my clubs death.

For clarity my anger is not directed at Livi fans, its the fact that my club didn't have this option, and Clydebank!

So members clubs don't vote for change and Massone doesn't sell, what happens then?

I would be very surprised and disappointed if Jim Ballantyne does not resign from the SFL blazers.

[nick cash]

Can we have a new sweepstake to see how long Rankine and McDougall take to sweep the ineffectual Livi trust out of the picture, the reality will kick in for the gruesome twosome today and the gamble will become almost reality, what makes them think they can do what many others have tried to and failed, deep pockets required.

Although it might be overstating it to say yesterday was the day football died, it's integrity certainly did. To all suppliers and businesses, why would you ever supply Livi anything, you have little chance of being paid and if i was someone renting a house or paying business rates would seriously consider speaking to the WLC to re negotiate my rent / rates.

Who next as the house of cards that is Scottish football tetters on the brink, without any shread of dignity or integrity, the problem of clubs borrowing and spending beyond their means is the issue the SFL should be addressing not allowing rule changes to save their face after a summer where they failed to anything decissive.

How many more false dawns.

And i have to say this is fuelled by unrealistic expectations by fans driven by misplaced emotions.When we need leadership we get a fudge, we need realism and dignity, we get a shady backroom deal.

Edited July 31, 2009 by nick cash

[TheDoctor]

I feel your pain, I really do. And I'm loving it

Tomorrow's Sun

You appear to be going to great lengths to undo the humbleness, relief and even embarrassment your fellow fans are feeling over what happened yesterday.

Take my advice, dude, quit while you're ahead.

[lyle be back]

I'm not going to plough through the 30-odd pages that have been added since last night but have a few questions (apologies if they have been asked before).

1. I thought someone had posted something about the SFL not wanting a new club to be formed that would basically just take over the old one's place. Is this not what this 50/50 venture is? Bang goes the dangerous precedent.

2. I assuime there will be some sort of punishment for admin/ not paying creditors/ living outside means. Presumably a 15 point fine (a la Hamilton when their players went on strike). At the minimum this should be what happens.

3. Are existing creditors going to be paid in full? No doubt WLC will bend over backwards to cut the rent, which hopefully will allow any other rent payer in the area to go to the council with this precedent in their hands.

4. I'm not entirely sure what the 'hard work' undertaken by the fans was. Was it seeking out new sugar daddies to bankroll the club, whilst creating a stitch up with the local cooncil for reduced rent? What fuind raising/ campaigning was undertaken to create 'plan b' apart from the MocDougall/ Rankine saviours'? I'm not up to speed with the hard work undertaken - from what I can see, the fans seemed to expend more energy bitching at each other (a la MCL/ Penelope Pitstop etc) than getting together to save the club.

5. Have they been allowed to continue because someone paid off the SFL 'up front' (the bond). Are the SFL only interested in a team that can fuilfil its fixtures and sod the rest of society (council tax payers, creditors, all taxpayers re HMRC) that the club stitches up whilst doing it?

As mentioned, I don't know if all these safeguards have been put in place/ questions satisfactorily answered above. To me, it seems like Livi got away with it again. Please explain why I'm wrong if this is not the case.

[Howlin' Wilf]

I've written a wee piece here about events.

I don't know if anyone has made the point but as old pals, Rankine and McDougall will have been in this together from the start.

[Scary Bear]

I'm glad the Livi fans haven't lost their club.

However, if I was a Gretna fan I would be raging. It seems that all you have to do is offer assurances that you can fulfill your fixtures and you get a stay of execution, no relegation to the 3rd Division, and everything's tickety boo.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle4029132.ece

Will Livingston be deducted the standard 10 points or will they get a more stringent punishment.

Didn't Accies get a 15 point deduction for missing a fixture?

It seems that the SFL don't care a great deal about a clubs finances or reputation. All they care about is whether a club can fulfill it's fixtures.

[qos_75]

The rule change is exactly that and I doubt that 75% of the 29 member clubs will agree to the change. If it is passed no one will lend to a club in Scotland or do a big contract without seeing the money first.

I would not be surpised if clubs voted for the rule change to be honest. I'm sure there are a few that are struggling at the moment and if Livi can get away with it, I'm sure they will thinking it could be of a benefit to them in the future as well.

There's no doubt Livi should have been relegated with a points penalty at the very least. However, I believe the knights in shining armour would only come in if they were in the 1st Division. The SFL soiled themselves and agreed to these demands. As I have said previously, I did not want to see Livi fold, but I did want to see a fitting punishment, sadly if there is any, it will be minimal.

I backed the SFL previously, however it's now clear they are unable or unwilling to implement proper penalties for clubs in this position. The people in charge at the SFL should now resign or be forced out.

[Stadio Delle Almondvale]

So, if Massone is a nutjob, then what can be said of McDougall after this qoute He said: "Livingston is an asset to this league."

Also, why would anyone jump into bed with Rankine?

Livingston themselves do not deserve to be called an asset. Senior football in West Lothian is however an asset to the SFL and indeed one they can't afford to lose. What would happen to the core of 1200/1500 fans that attend these games not to mention the casual Livi fans? 100% loss to the SFL. Some would drift to the SPL and a fair few would just give up on attending football matches. The SFL recognise that for their brand to flourish they can't let an area the size of West Lothian become unrepresented within their set up. I'm afraid that makes perfect sense for the continuing prosperity of senior league football outwith the SPL in Scotland. We now have the job of making sure that we shed the tarnished image that we now have so that our club can become an asset. It will take years.

If you mean 'saddened', I'd say no, I'm not. Disappointed maybe, but not saddened.

Today was an opportunity missed for the community to rid itself of charlatans for good.

Massone is the charlatan and we are trying.

Livingston have had 14 years (15 if they make it through this season) to punch through the Edinburgh/OF shell, with millions in other people's money and haven't managed it. Bill Blobby tried it with a free stadium from LDC/WLC, Dominic Keane tried it with other folk's lottery wins and some jiggery pokery, the after-effects of which are currently being dealt with in the criminal courts. Flynn tried it and failed like Fail McFail of Failtown, 7-time loser of the Failiest Failer of Failland contest. Massone is en route for Leverndale.

What makes you think the arrival of the one-time owner of a roller disco and the ex-Cowdenbeath chairman is going to change that unblemished record of vast public subsidy, administration, finanicial mis-management, lunacy and administration (again)?

15 years to break the monopoly of 4 clubs with a combined history of about 526 years? I think you are being somewhat disingenuous. It will take 50 years + before that happens. It won't begin properly until kids who have supported Livi all their life start taking their kids and grandkids to games. People like Dominic Keane thought they could buy history and tradition and convert people on the quick. It was never going to happen and we are reaping the results now.

But maybe we should take your atitude and not try. That I would suggest is the behaviour of Fail McFail of Failtown, 7-time loser of the Failiest Failer of Failland contest.

[MCL]

I'm glad the Livi fans haven't lost their club.

However, if I was a Gretna fan I would be raging. It seems that all you have to do is offer assurances that you can fulfill your fixtures and you get a stay of execution, no relegation to the 3rd Division, and everything's tickety boo.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle4029132.ece

Will Livingston be deducted the standard 10 points or will they get a more stringent punishment.

Didn't Accies get a 15 point deduction for missing a fixture?

It seems that the SFL don't care a great deal about a clubs finances or reputation. All they care about is whether a club can fulfill it's fixtures.

Gretna were relegated because Raydale didn't meet SFL standards. There is no standard penalty and we didn't miss any fixtures thanks to the players agreeing to play for nothing to keep us going. Accies players went on strike and forced the fixture to be postponed.

[MCL]

You know, if my club was saved at the 11th hour, I wouldn't be on here to gloat. I'd be pretty pissed at the fact that it had got to that point in the first place, but each to their own.

You appear to be going to great lengths to undo the humbleness, relief and even embarrassment your fellow fans are feeling over what happened yesterday.

Take my advice, dude, quit while you're ahead.

The bad man called me names so I took the piss. Get over it B)

[Skyline Drifter]

Why 16? You need 75% of 29 member clubs to get the rule change, i.e. 22.

It's not one member one vote as I recall. I think First division clubs get more votes than second division clubs who get more than third division clubs (might be a 4:2:1 ratio if I recall correctly).

I don't see this rule being changed to be honest.

[Skyline Drifter]

Will Livingston be deducted the standard 10 points or will they get a more stringent punishment.

Didn't Accies get a 15 point deduction for missing a fixture?

There is no automatic or "standard" points deduction in the SFL for going into administration (which incidentally they are not at this point technically in).

Yes, Accies got a 15 point deduction for missing a fixture.

[lyle be back]

There is no automatic or "standard" points deduction in the SFL for going into administration (which incidentally they are not at this point technically in).

Yes, Accies got a 15 point deduction for missing a fixture.

So Massone was right - Livi are not in administration? I missed this (easy when you have 270 pages and if you miss a day you are 30 behind!)

[MONKMAN]

There is no automatic or "standard" points deduction in the SFL for going into administration (which incidentally they are not at this point technically in).

Yes, Accies got a 15 point deduction for missing a fixture.

No less than what they deseved for that horrendous crime.........

Edited July 31, 2009 by MONKMAN

[EdinburghPar1975]

2. I assuime there will be some sort of punishment for admin/ not paying creditors/ living outside means. Presumably a 15 point fine (a la Hamilton when their players went on strike). At the minimum this should be what happens.

3. Are existing creditors going to be paid in full? No doubt WLC will bend over backwards to cut the rent, which hopefully will allow any other rent payer in the area to go to the council with this precedent in their hands.

As i've said before, in no way did I want Livi bust but i'm afraid that this whole episode stinks. As with the above can someone tell me if an assurance has been given that WLC will receive their past rent and HMRC their money..and all the other creditors before they are allowed to start running up another years debts? Perhaps i'm wrong but I was under the impression that the reason McGruther was there was as a result of a council action to receive their monies due? Given that i've yet to see anything other than an announcement that his firm will now receive a years fee's from staying on I can see no benefit at all that he has played in this episode.

No current creditor has gained from this decision and like other posters I feel that the last shred of integrity that the league had has now gone. As QOS75 has stated a number of clubs will look to self preserve and vote with Livi as they will now be looking for the same protection should they get into difficulty, the league has left itself open to a lot of clubs who will just point at what happened with Livi to allow them to move on and not clear debts.

The only way in my eyes that Livi should be permitted to continue in SFL1 is if a 'Luton' style deduction is imposed. They should be docked 30 points with a caveat that it is unappealable (after all, as above Hamilton got minus 15 for not playing a fixture), if Rankine and McDougall are really there for the club this won't matter to them. Yes it would relegate them but that should be the last of their concerns..at least they'll get another year of gate receipts from SFL1.

[Skyline Drifter]

So Massone was right - Livi are not in administration? I missed this (easy when you have 270 pages and if you miss a day you are 30 behind!)

They have an interim "manager" in preparation for administration. They are due to go into administration (if nothing changes) on August 17th (or something like that, might not be the exact correct date).