Doctor Who

[captainkev]

Don't know how to react to that. Both delighted the took on the Time War, yet a little bit disappointed that it was so Star Wars-ish. Also hugely disappointed they decided to "save" Gallifrey. The whole scenario was bred from the Doctor desiring to rid the Universe of both the Daleks and Time Lords, hes referenced this throughout the new series', and has quite often said how the Time Lords of that time were as bad as Daleks. So I'm a bit disappointed he's suddenly decided they're actually alright and worth saving. Not to mention the fact there must of been Daleks on the planet anyway as we seen them roaming the streets, so effectively what he seems to have done is simply freeze the Time War rather than end it, which is simply daft.

Whole episode seemed to be going quite nicely and then for some reason it started flying on, seemed quite rushed and might well have been better split over two parts. The quickness in which the Doctor decides he'll no longer use The Moment isn't too smart either, seeing as hes also said at numerous times in the new series' that he doesn't always regret what he done. Claras character seemed entirely forced into the situation aswell, as was Roses', and Tom Bakers. Although I'm glad Baker made an appearance in some guise.

Perhaps I'm being overly cynical as I hate how ultimately the Doctor seems to have managed the impossible yet again. I always enjoyed the fact he'd made a "mistake" when he killed everyone, it added a humanity and a darkness to the Doctor, it added a threat and gave reason as to why he was so feared in the Universe. That can no longer be used, part of his fear factor has gone as he's now operating within limits again. I enjoyed the episodes best when he seemed to pull it off before ultimately being crushed (Waters of Mars comes to mind quickest), and I'd probably have enjoyed it more if he'd failed to save Gallifrey.

I do understand why they done what they done though, and I know its highly likely its related to a future storyline they've already thought up, so I'll wait to see how it turns out. Just feel slightly let down they went down the "Everythings perfect in the end" route, even the acceptance of the John Hurt Doctor seemed incredibly forced into the whole thing. To me it would've been better if Tennant and Smith had gone back to stop Hurt, and he'd shown them, and told them why he must do it. Then he'd done it. To me that "acceptance" of him, with a hint of hate still there, would've fitted better with the entire new Who better. This just seemed slightly adrift from whats gone before

Pretty much completely agree with you about this. I've always liked the fact that at one point in the Doctor's past there was a situation the Doctor couldn't just technobabble his way out of and he had to make a terrible choice for the greater good. John Hurt Doctor's existence feels incredibly contrived and his existence changes the show in a huge way and imo it's not for the better.

I really hate the fact that Moffat chose to ignore the fact that the time war wasn't just between the time lords and the Daleks, there was a whole lot of other terrible things going on in there that were arguably even worse than the Daleks. It's so annoying that Moffat essentially boiled the argument down to "OMG Doctor! Think of all the adorable kiddies you're going to kill." Especially as we know the time lords were also planning on destroying the universe as well.

I've always felt it'd be better if McGann was the Doctor who(lol) ended the time war as he was such a charming incarnation who seemed to just love life and it really rammed home how terrible this time war had been if even he had recognised the need to join up and fight. Also Eccleston's Doctor in his brashness and plain style of dress felt like a very appropriate contrast to what we had seen of McGann on tv before and that no longer applies now as he's following the John Hurt Doctor.

The decision by Smith's Doctor to try and forget about him isn't interesting and just feels like an incredibly contrived and pathetic move from Moffat to cover up for the fact there had been absolutely no indication that there was an incarnation between McGann and Eccleston. Hell there's a point in The Lodger where The Doctor points to himself and says "Yes, Eleven". It's even worse given that the mini episode The Night of the Doctor shows that McGann's incarnation chose to become that man. I just don't buy that the Doctor would choose to try and forget about this incarnation, especially as it's not like he's never acknowledged his responsibility in ending the war before either.

Ah well, it's done, Moffat's had his way now and the show is irreversibly different now. But still, only a month away now until "The Steven Moffat rushed attempt at wrapping up this 'silence will fall' arc before Matt Smith leaves while trying to make it look like he's planned it out all along." I'm guessing that's what the christmas special will be called anyway

[RandomGuy.]

Ah well, it's done, Moffat's had his way now and the show is irreversibly different now. But still, only a month away now until "The Steven Moffat rushed attempt at wrapping up this 'silence will fall' arc before Matt Smith leaves while trying to make it look like he's planned it out all along." I'm guessing that's what the christmas special will be called anyway

Agree with everything you've said but its essentially boiling down to this. The fact is they've tried to be too smart with all these long running "arcs", and haven't really given themselves enough time to end them properly, so we're getting subjected to rushed plots that tie up two or three loose ends as quickly and easily as possible. Which is disappointing

[Kilbowie's Finest]

Absolute belter of a nod to the past that I missed last night but someone has just screen grabbed over on the Gallifrey Base forum

Look at the code for the Vortex Manipulator that the Eleventh Doctor scrapes into the wall of the cell when they are in The Tower of London - brilliant !!!! It's little touches like this that show how much of a fan Moffat really is !!!!!

[captainkev]

Agree with everything you've said but its essentially boiling down to this. The fact is they've tried to be too smart with all these long running "arcs", and haven't really given themselves enough time to end them properly, so we're getting subjected to rushed plots that tie up two or three loose ends as quickly and easily as possible. Which is disappointing

True, but it also feels like Moffat changed tack in between series 5 and 6. Or perhaps lost interest in the silence will fall arc. Throughout series 5 we got the impression that the silence was a natural force of some kind, or that silence falling was like what we saw right at the end of The Pandorica Opens when the Tardis exploded after the voice said that phrase.

Yet when we get to series 6, the Silence are suddenly a bunch of aliens and then before you know it, the Silence is some religion, presumably run by an eye patched lady who we aren't completely sure is definitely dead. I can't help feeling like Moffat just got bored of the "silence will fall" arc after A Good Man Goes to War and moved onto this recent story thread about the Doctor's name which we all knew was a waste of time because nobody would be foolish enough to reveal the Doctor's actual name.

Absolute belter of a nod to the past that I missed last night but someone has just screen grabbed over on the Gallifrey Base forum

Look at the code for the Vortex Manipulator that the Eleventh Doctor scrapes into the wall of the cell when they are in The Tower of London - brilliant !!!! It's little touches like this that show how much of a fan Moffat really is !!!!!

ImageUploadedByPie & Bovril1385327150.818199.jpg

What is it? i've been staring at it for what feels like ages and I can't tell what it says and feel very stupid now.

Edited November 25, 2013 by captainkev

[Kilbowie's Finest]

The code for the vortex manipulator is

1716231163

17.16pm 23/11/63 - the time the first ever episode went out !!

[captainkev]

The code for the vortex manipulator is

1716231163

17.16pm 23/11/63 - the time the first ever episode went out !!

Ah, that's a nice touch.

[Ludo*1]

Steven Moffat wants Capaldi's doctor to have a 'snarl'.

[Mr. Brightside]

I enjoyed it, but I agree with what captainkey was saying

[dorlomin]

The one bad thing about that episode is Capaldi is someone you could imagine bad enough to kill planet to save the universe and be driven slightly mad by it.

Him and Ecclestone are the only two doctors in decades where you really feel they could push that button.

[~~~]

I watched it again tonight, much more enjoyable on the second viewing. I notice considering Matt Smith is the current Doctor, he really wasn't given many lines to say when all 3 where together, most of the talking was done by Tennant.

Don't think thats a coincidence he really does come across as a far better Doctor than Smith (not that i think Smith is bad)

John Hurt's Doctor's mentioning about them acting like children and asking why they are embarrassed to be grown ups is probable a clue about what way Peter's Doctor is going to be like.

Also, on an unrelated note, this did make me laugh, North Korea's edit from The Name of The Doctor

[captainkev]

I watched it again tonight, much more enjoyable on the second viewing. I notice considering Matt Smith is the current Doctor, he really wasn't given many lines to say when all 3 where together, most of the talking was done by Tennant.

Don't think thats a coincidence he really does come across as a far better Doctor than Smith (not that i think Smith is bad)

John Hurt's Doctor's mentioning about them acting like children and asking why they are embarrassed to be grown ups is probable a clue about what way Peter's Doctor is going to be like.

Also, on an unrelated note, this did make me laugh, North Korea's edit from The Name of The Doctor

Indeed, I doubt we're going to be seeing Capaldi's Doctor wear a fez or have a goofy catchphrase. Probably for the best, we've had two kooky Doctors in a row with Tennant and Smith so it's maybe time to go back to the more brooding and impatient kind of Doctor. More akin to the Hartnell, Pertwee or Eccleston Doctors.

[EdgarusQPFC]

Indeed, I doubt we're going to be seeing Capaldi's Doctor wear a fez or have a goofy catchphrase. Probably for the best, we've had two kooky Doctors in a row with Tennant and Smith so it's maybe time to go back to the more brooding and impatient kind of Doctor. More akin to the Hartnell, Pertwee or Eccleston Doctors.

I wouldn't mind a broody, serious, no bullshit kinda doctor for a change.

[the jambo-rocker]

I think people are a bit too attached to what they want Doctor Who to be, and what it is right now. In terms of the Time War, I would say yes, I probably would not have liked it to be backtracked, even though they have managed to keep it closed off, give or take the odd drop fairly well for the most part.

The thing is with a show with such longevity, the Time War whether you want it to or not was always going to be brought back into the mix, because one day, whether it was this year or in five years time, it always was going to be revisited as you can only really keep the ideas churning for so long before things start becoming a bit stale. Right now, Moffat and Davies has managed to use the formula of making the assistants a lot more prominent, but even now with Jenna-Louise you kind of feel that as much as you love her (and I really do), the whole plot feels familiar. Having the TimeLords may take away the uniqueness to his character, but having many other TimeLords and conflicts with his own people could really bring a fresh touch to the modern era, especially with the Daleks and Cybermen being inserted into the mix more often than I'm comfortable with.

Bringing the Time War back into it might have arguably have been too early granted (in ten years time I can imagine the ever continuing improvement in CGI making this look a more comfortable fit for Gallifrey), maybe looking towards in two years before I would have thought about accelerating it back into the mix, but Moffat has done the smart thing again, opening the door very early while managing to keep it fairly locked away for another year when Capaldi will get his look in (not gonna, I flipped when I saw him). You also have to factor in the fact that this was the 50th anniversary, and to have done something less relevant would have certainly felt like a f**k you to the fans.

On the Doctor finding absolution again, I can totally agree with what people are saying, but his moral ambiguity has always been something of a rollercoaster, whether it was becoming too big a name for his own good and disappearing back into the shadows, or when he was banished to earth only to return crowned President of the Timelords. You also need to remember that this is at the end of the day, a family show and as much I want The Doctor to be the most interesting, mysterious man with a mean streak possible, they still have to an extent make him family friendly. For people that still think him clean as a whistle are quick to forget when he left the alternate older Amy Pond to die and that was as dirty as I've seen him be.

FWIW, I enjoyed what I saw, and it certainly convinced me that Tennant was certainly at his best under Moffat written stories, even Hurt managing to eclipse Smith at points. Having Hurt in did make me release just how young and a bit animated our latest Doctors have been, so if anything I feel like it will aid in making the transistion to Capaldi more gratifying, because it feels like it is the right time to shake things up with Smith, as good as he has been at times.

Having Baker in there was pointless. In fact I was convinced that he wasn't even aware of where he was, or what he has saying at that moment.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Maybe some of you are over thinking it.

[jock001]

Tom Baker with white hair made no sense to me until I realised that they aren't in the same universe where we previously saw Baker regenerate.

Matt Smith caused the 'big bang 2' and apparently only came back because somehow River managed to remember him and then got Amy to remember too.

So a white haired Tom Baker would make sense if he isn't actually the same Doctor i.e he comes from the big bang 2 universe and 'our' doctor comes from the big bang 1 universe.

Bakers' lines seem to fit in with this.

First he tells the doctor he has a lot to do i.e he knows matt smith's future and matt smith doesn't. That suggests they can't be the same doctor. Baker then specifically says he can only tell Smith what he would do 'If I were you, perhaps I was you of course. Or perhaps you are me...........Or perhaps it doesn't match up either way. Who knows, eh?"

Multiple doctors could be absolutely epic!!!!!

[happysouth]

For me I was expecting it to be a bit crap. I was basing this on moffat continually leaving (or ignoring) loose ends throughout the last couple of series. Plots have been started and then stopped with lots of unanswered questions and a lot of the things he has done just make no sense within the storylines themselves.

So I was really pleased that this episode had a genuine beginning, middle and end that made sense. There was good interaction between the doctors, good nods to the previous 50 years and a storyline that worked in context. Moffat also did a good job at poking fun at himself with little asides about things (gimmicks) that fans get annoyed about (timey wimey, overuse of the sonic, childish doctors, kissing etc).

If I was being picky then the tom baker appearance didnt really work for me although it was nice to see him.

[DA Baracus]

I liked the juxtaposition between Hurt and his successors. It shows that they took everything about Hurt’s doctor and decided to become the opposite. This is why we see younger doctors who flail about, flap their hands, say silly things like ‘Timey Wimey’ (the fact that Hurt appeared so digusted by this bears this out I feel), wear fezes and marry monarchs. They’re trying to forget the man who committed genocide, and to do so they’re forgetting every little thing about him by being the exact opposite of him. When you see the cracks appear you know that deep down they can never forget. Eccelstone’s Doctor is the proof of this; the guy was coming apart at the seems, haunted by what he’d done and what he knew. However with the events of this special, the Doctor can now move on. I think Hurt isn’t so much the Doctor who proceeded McGann as the Doctor who will bridge Smith to Capaldi. The Doctor doesn’t need to be a younger man running around being silly and frantic any longer; he can now be an older guy like Capaldi like before, a more serious man, although still with a firm sense of humour.

That’s what the special did for me anyway.

[KnightswoodBear]

Bakers Doctor said something along the lines of "you'll revisit some faces".

So I thought it made sense that he could be the Doctor from the future.

[Kilbowie's Finest]

Bakers Doctor said something along the lines of "you'll revisit some faces".

So I thought it made sense that he could be the Doctor from the future.

Yeah that was my understanding of it - Baker is basically a "retired" Doctor who has chosen one of his favourite old faces and is now Curator of The Undergallery

On a more interesting note apparently Orla Brady will be one of the main characters in the Christmas Special - apparently playing someone from The Doctor's past ( that narrows it down then !! )

Female Master ( Mistress ? ) anyone ??

[~~~]

Poster for the Christmas Special

"The time of The Doctor"

"Orbiting a quiet backwater planet, the massed forces of the universe’s deadliest species gather, drawn to a mysterious message that echoes out to the stars. And amongst them – the Doctor. Rescuing Clara from a family Christmas dinner, the Time Lord and his best friend must learn what this enigmatic signal means for his own fate and that of the universe."