thruthenight Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 I think you're spot on, apart from the highlighted bit. I'm pretty sure the CVA is against the oldco and nothing to do with the newco. Thats the point, really One of the clever kids can correct me if I'm wrong, but as the administrators are in control of the club, and their remit is to get the best for the creditors (whether that is selling everything or getting the club back on its feet), then they can't send the assets to another company without leaving administration first. The only way that they would legally be allowed to move the assets of RFC into another company would be if oldco owned newco, otherwise they'd be taking money away from creditors and into the hands of whoever is running the newco. If the oldco then didn't pass a CVA, then any assets being split between creditors would then include shares in the newco. I know that D&P have appeared dodgy so far, but taking money away from creditors and giving it to random businessmen in broad daylight is another thing altogether. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Jean King Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Im struggling to get my head round this now - Surely Miller is paying £11m for RFC as they exist today. He is then transferring the Assets to a newco but leaving the debt with RFC however Miller surely owns both and therefore he is liable for the debts of RFC as much as he owns the Assets of the newco ? He has to have bought the a company debts, assets the lot whether he transfers some of that company to a newco is surely just a technicality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) Grand Conspiracy Theory of the Week Andrew Ellis gets his mate, Craig Whyte to buy Rangers. Craig Whyte drives the club into administration. Whyte appoints Duff and Phelps, who happen to have an office in Chicago. Chicago based sports investors Club Sport 9 express an interest. Bill Miller, an associate of Club Sports 9, gets preferred bidder status. Bill Miller is a friend of Andrew Ellis! (whoops, cheers Jussy ) Edited May 3, 2012 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungolfin Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 FFS this Bill Miller ducking and diving deal makes Craig Whyte sound positively legit'. I have no doubt that this will get kicked into touch, if not by the SPL, then the SFA. A newco is a newco is a newco, no matter what you try and call it and I'll wager that Miller's proposal (as was reported before) is conditional on the newco sanctions being dropped - but that won't happen. This just allows Duff & Phelps to continue the process of delaying until the end of the season when Bill Miller finally pulls out of the deal and Rangers liquidate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussy Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Grand Conspiracy Theory of the Week Andrew Ellis gets his mate, Craig Whyte to buy Rangers. Craig Whyte drives the club into administration. Whyte appoints Duff and Phelps, who happen to have an office in Chicago. Chicago based sports investors Club Sport 9 express an interest. Bill Murray, an associate of Club Sports 9, gets preferred bidder status. Coincidently, Bill Murray is a friend of Andrew Ellis! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooper Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) - Craig Whyte puts club in adminstration, with his choice of administrator; - The adminstrators drag the process out while not significantly reducing the assets (ie: costs) of the club; - Craig Whyte is holed up in Monaco, liaising with his US-based business associate to draw up a buy-out plan based on securing assurances from the Scottish football authorities that Rangers 2012 Newco will be afforded access to the SPL with minimal sanctions, and hence retain their substantial operating base; - Bill Miller shoulders all other parties out of the equation by fronting up the £500,000 preferred bidder security, and promising the earth (that his bid would win the day was a fait accompli in any event); - The Scottish footballing authorities duly capitulate in the most ignominius manner; - Rangers 'toxic' debt is 'incubated' in the Oldco and the assets are transferred to the Newco; - The 'old' Rangers is a dead duck with massive liabilities and is effectively liquidated. Nae luck creditors!; - Long live the Newco, with assets owned jointly by Messrs Miller and Whyte. Far-fetched? Edited May 3, 2012 by Drooper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 I'm still (further to our conversation on this the other day) not entirely convinced this is the case. I don't think the creditors are entitled to anything from the newco, but my interpretation may be wrong. MLM did get back to me on the question of when the assets and CVA agreement take place. Apparently it's entirely legal and common for the CVA to be agreed after the hive down. I'd certainly be challenging this if I was a creditor. My link You're right, I believe. The creditors of the oldco are not entitled to anything from the newco, in as much as they cant persue the newco for the debt. However, as the oldco "owns" the newco, if the oldco goes into liquidation then creditors get the shares in the newco. One of the clever kids can correct me if I'm wrong, but as the administrators are in control of the club, and their remit is to get the best for the creditors (whether that is selling everything or getting the club back on its feet), then they can't send the assets to another company without leaving administration first. The only way that they would legally be allowed to move the assets of RFC into another company would be if oldco owned newco, otherwise they'd be taking money away from creditors and into the hands of whoever is running the newco. If the oldco then didn't pass a CVA, then any assets being split between creditors would then include shares in the newco. I know that D&P have appeared dodgy so far, but taking money away from creditors and giving it to random businessmen in broad daylight is another thing altogether. Erm, yeah, thats been said several times already Im struggling to get my head round this now - Surely Miller is paying £11m for RFC as they exist today. He is then transferring the Assets to a newco but leaving the debt with RFC however Miller surely owns both and therefore he is liable for the debts of RFC as much as he owns the Assets of the newco ? He has to have bought the a company debts, assets the lot whether he transfers some of that company to a newco is surely just a technicality. You have to seperate Miller the person from the liabilities of the companies he owns. Yes, he will own the newco and the oldco, but that doesnt mean the newco is liable for the debts of the oldco. Apart from in the case of liquidation of the oldco, as above. Simple, isnt it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooper Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) Grand Conspiracy Theory of the Week Andrew Ellis gets his mate, Craig Whyte to buy Rangers. Craig Whyte drives the club into administration. Whyte appoints Duff and Phelps, who happen to have an office in Chicago. Chicago based sports investors Club Sport 9 express an interest. Bill Murray, an associate of Club Sports 9, gets preferred bidder status. Coincidently, Bill Murray is a friend of Andrew Ellis! Hmm....not a million miles away from my conspiracy theory. Edited May 3, 2012 by Drooper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Grand Conspiracy Theory of the Week Coincidently, Bill Murray is a friend of Andrew Ellis! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooper Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) Im struggling to get my head round this now - Surely Miller is paying £11m for RFC as they exist today. He is then transferring the Assets to a newco but leaving the debt with RFC however Miller surely owns both and therefore he is liable for the debts of RFC as much as he owns the Assets of the newco ? He has to have bought the a company debts, assets the lot whether he transfers some of that company to a newco is surely just a technicality. Aye, but the Oldco will be liquidated, and who will care....aside from the burned creditors? Edited May 3, 2012 by Drooper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEADOWXI Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 BMs first two questions when he sits down to see how he can start turning a profit, Right this European football, how much is the franchise to play in the big money groups? Ok if thats not how I can get back the millions you want me to hand over how about that other UK league the EPL, how to we qualify for that? At this point BM does do walking away. A man who is out to make a profit is not going to throw piles of it into that enormouse sesspit of debt that is Ibrox. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin M Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 You have to seperate Miller the person from the liabilities of the companies he owns. Yes, he will own the newco and the oldco, but that doesnt mean the newco is liable for the debts of the oldco. Apart from in the case of liquidation of the oldco, as above. If he owns the oldco, then that means Whyte gets his payoff to achieve that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 If he owns the oldco, then that means Whyte gets his payoff to achieve that? Possibly, or eventually! The MLM blog has a few interesting points, one of which is that Whyte has been side-stepped ... for now. If Miller actually intends to carry on with his plan of merging the oldco and newco back together again, then he would still need Whytes shares. Clicky Something else from the same blog, from the other day, that might answer the question over the administrators "doing the best for creditors" There are 3 objectives of administration: 1. Rescuing the company as a going concern 2. Achieving a better result for the creditors as a whole than would be likely if the company were wound up (without first being in administration) 3. Realising property in order to make a distribution to one or more secured or preferential creditors. These purposes are hierarchical, so you can only move to purpose 2 if it becomes clear that saving the company is not practicable. The report published by Duff and Phelps on 5 April specifically refers to these purposes in Section 6. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kildog Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 BMs first two questions when he sits down to see how he can start turning a profit, Right this European football, how much is the franchise to play in the big money groups? Ok if thats not how I can get back the millions you want me to hand over how about that other UK league the EPL, how to we qualify for that? At this point BM does do walking away. A man who is out to make a profit is not going to throw piles of it into that enormouse sesspit of debt that is Ibrox. That's how it looks to me. What's in it for him? Assuming they can get the whole newco con up and running, where is he going to see any return one single penny he invests? Scottish football is not a place to be attempting to make money. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooper Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Possibly, or eventually! The MLM blog has a few interesting points, one of which is that Whyte has been side-stepped ... for now. If Miller actually intends to carry on with his plan of merging the oldco and newco back together again, then he would still need Whytes shares. What if Whyte were in on the deal? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin M Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 What if Whyte were in on the deal? We could then all rest easy and know that the future holds more delight 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooper Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 We could then all rest easy and know that the future holds more delight Indeed. For me, it is no coincidence that Miller has been the only bidder who doesn't seem unduly concerned about the status of Whyte's shares 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) Excerpt from Duff & Phelps statement: Furthermore, Mr Miller and his team have sought clarity in relation to potential footballing sanctions and the place of Rangers Football Club plc within the Scottish Premier League. Significant progress has been made and discussions will continue throughout the period which Mr Miller now enjoys as preferred bidder." There is nothing in there saying that assurances have been given by SPL and/or SFA and there is no-one within either of these organisations who is in a position to give any assurances. Like many others I have reservations about both these governing bodies but I think the language used by the administrators has been chosen very carefully. I am more convinced that ever that the Miller bid is going to collapse like a pack of cards. Edited May 3, 2012 by Granny Danger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceblink Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug #SPL source tells me that Bill Miller has been given no assurances about possible sanctions for a newco #Rangers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) Chris McLaughlin, BBC Sport"SPL source tells me that Bill Miller has been given no assurances about possible sanctions for a newco #Rangers" Ah. Edited May 3, 2012 by Baxter Parp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.