H_B Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 But the point is that it's not really up to the Unionist side to come up with a shared vision the way it isn;t up to tthe Yes side to come up with one. I don;t expect, the Green's for example, to back SNP postions on currency or the monarchy. And both the LDs and Labour have come up with their post-No plans (the LDs a good bit ahead of the game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Yes it is. No it's clearly not. We can do this all night if you want or you can give up and acknowledge that "income" is what you get before tax, not after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 So do I, what are we arguing about? The way you want it implemented is different from me, but clearly we both believe progressive taxation is good for the country and good for society. I've never said what percentage of tax anyone should pay, so trying to portray me as a maoist is just silly, but typical of your level of debate. It's called rhetorical flourish. I asked you a very specific question, namely why, if H_B's suspicions are founded, that those currently in the 40p tax bracket will be asked to pay more in income taxes in an independent Scotland, that would necessarily be to the benefit of "the country" or "society as a whole". A general belief that progressive taxation is broadly a good thing does not in any way answer this point. You have conspicuously failed to provide an argument to that effect. All we've had is "uhm he's filthy rich so let's hit him with more of the tax things. "Condemn" my arse. Your "condemnation" of the other parties has been so faint that it hasn't been detected. Your condemnation of the SNP has been tedious and long. Hypocrisy. Untrue. I've consistently and specifically criticised the other parties for their behaviour on this. The only difference is that no one has stood up to defend their indefensible actions. You and your merry little band on here each and every one of you line up to defend the SNP whenever tehy are accused of not thinking something through properly or being disinenuous. No you didn't. I think you'll find that I did. Read my posts again. In full. Perhaps you'd care to mention one area of government spending that couldn't be interpreted as being for the good of society, the common weal, as it were? Even overseas aid can be said to benefit the nation as a whole, so I'm fascinated to see what you can come up with. All universal benefits, the Old Age Pension, university tuition, comprehensive healthcare, the bank bailout. Virtually everything that governments do, save perhaps the preservation of law and order and defence of the citizens from externally armed forces directs benefits mainly or wholly to individuals or classes of individuals rather than to society as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 It's a mute point lol wut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 And both the LDs and Labour have come up with their post-No plans (the LDs a good bit ahead of the game). Have they? Joanne Lamont came up with that devolved income tax plan that seemed to get blown out of the water, ostensibly by the Scottish labour MPs who didn't want any more dilution of their own power. The most recent Labour intervention from Douglas Alexander - who is the main spring behind Labour policies in Scotland has suggested that in the event of a No vote, labour will go away and have a nice big looooooong chat about it. Lamont's plan seemed to have been conceived in isolation from any wider strategy, and seemed to have been put up as a test balloon, swiflty shot down. Alexander's intervention appears to be acase of trying to hang off any commitments until after a No vote at which point they can relax a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 lol wut Okay,thanks for pointing it out. 'Moot'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo-rocker Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 That's the thing about coalition poltics, we don't know what policies will be pushed by the junior partner. The Lib Dems pushed for AV and Lords reform with the tories, so there's every chance they may want to push the constitution in a hypothetical Lab-Lib government, To be fair, you are coming across 'could territory', just like you counter that arguably Labour would feel no obligation, hell even go against it again just like the Tories did in the last AV attempt, because it still benefits Labour far more with the FPTP system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 To be fair, you are coming across 'could territory', just like you counter that arguably Labour would feel no obligation, hell even go against it again just like the Tories did in the last AV attempt, because it still benefits Labour far more with the FPTP system. I'm talking about the LD's "Federal Britain" proposals, not any changes to a voting system, which i think is probably dead for a generation now. Labour could feel no obligation, but you'd have to question if that'd be smart poltics to be painted as anti-devolution by the Lib Dems and, if they got on board, the SNP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Bojangles Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Categorically untrue. The Lib Dems published a report comprehensively outlining their post referendum position on further powers and adopted it as party policy. As such, it will be in their 2015 UK manifesto and their 2016 Scottish Parliament manifesto. If that's not "even the tiniest hint" then I don't know what you want. You can try some hand-waving with "haw they're pure irrelevant lol" as much as you like, but insofar as you want to call them a unionist party and are happy to take the piss out of them, you can't then turn around and say they haven't told Scotland what they propose in the event of a No vote, because the demonstrably have. I don't take the piss out of the Lib Dems other than to say "They are an irrelevance". It doesn't matter what they propose because they will NEVER be in majority and will renege on any promise they make in order to get a sweet, sweet taste of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 The Republic of Scottish Chaos. Clueless. Obsessed with England. Scared to actually face looking at what they will actually do away from their British family. Careful,the English will actually let you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10 CC ICT Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 The Republic of Scottish Chaos. Clueless. Obsessed with England. Scared to actually face looking at what they will actually do away from their British family. Careful,the English will actually let you go. You think they can stop us? Or is that more "mute" points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOGI IS GOD Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Last night's Road to the Referendum now online - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNU7WWASqYw&sns=tw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 You think they can stop us? Or is that more "mute" points? I am absolutely sure we will not stand in your way and I hope you realise this.You have your referendum. Now,stop the English obsession and start looking inwards at your great master plan/s. Step forward Mr Salmond.Huh huh,err Mr Salmond please. Anyone seen Mr Salmond...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speckled tangerine Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 I am absolutely sure we will not stand in your way and I hope you realise this.You have your referendum. Now,stop the English obsession and start looking inwards at your great master plan/s. Step forward Mr Salmond.Huh huh,err Mr Salmond please. Anyone seen Mr Salmond...... I dare say he's canvassing up in Aberdeen Donside. By-election tomorrow and all that. It does make me laugh you've come out with this line. It wasn't so long ago that the SNP and Salmond inparticular were painted as a one man band, present at every opening of a bottle of becks and never off the telly. Make your fucking mind up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Ill ask again STOP QUOTING THE TROLL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlipperyP Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 The UK is currently in the EU. Scotland is not. Hode the horses are we not in the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 You can earn as much as you like, chum. You can have golden boot scrapers on the front door of your Georgian town house, it doesn't matter. Your income is not curtailed. Here's the sign of the maturity of the Yes side - we can disagree. BP - again, you are talking nonsense. I also think that HB voting according to his own financial position is one of the few intellectually sensible arguments for the No camp. I disagree with his conclusions, but after all, I am voting Yes as I think economically the country will be better off. Just as selfish (and in my view sensible) as HB's position. For the purposes of the debate, I also don't agree with the suggestion that higher rates of tax are progressive - I'm a flat rate tax man. If I earn 10x as much as the next man, then I should pay 10x as much tax. To my mind that is progressive, not paying 20 or 30x as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speckled tangerine Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Last night's Road to the Referendum now online - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNU7WWASqYw&sns=tw Cheers Yogi. Missed this last night. Does anybody know if you can get STV player on a Kindle??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 All we've had is "uhm he's filthy rich so let's hit him with more of the tax things. It's called rhetorical flourish, apparently. Untrue. I've consistently and specifically criticised the other parties for their behaviour on this. The only difference is that no one has stood up to defend their indefensible actions. You and your merry little band on here each and every one of you line up to defend the SNP whenever tehy are accused of not thinking something through properly or being disinenuous. Balls and pish. You've consistently given the Unionists a free ride and consistently criticised (often unfairly) Yes Scotland and the SNP. I can only go by what you post, chum. I think you'll find that I did. Read my posts again. In full. I did. All universal benefits, the Old Age Pension, university tuition, comprehensive healthcare, the bank bailout. Virtually everything that governments do, save perhaps the preservation of law and order and defence of the citizens from externally armed forces directs benefits mainly or wholly to individuals or classes of individuals rather than to society as a whole. Oh please. Those are all things that benefit society as a whole unless you'd prefer the poor to be burgling your house or your granny dying of starvation. Don't give me that right-wing libertarian pish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 lol wut Of course he means "mewt" - a point made by a kitten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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