Orange Walk / Scottish Cricket thread

[parsforlife]

AFJ would be way more clued up on the details than me, but it all revolves around walking in from Unionist areas on the edge of the city to the city centre in the morning to join up with the main Belfast area parade and then back again in the early evening once that's over and done with. Most of the route is non-controversial and through predominantly Unionist areas, but North Belfast has a complex patchwork sort of geography when it comes to who lives where, so at one point they wind up going past rather than through a hardline Republican area. The Crumlin Road is one of the main arterial routes in that regard, so the argument on the Unionist side is that it's a shared space, while obviously the resident groups from the Ardoyne put a very different spin on things. The ruling from the Parades Commission this year was that the morning was OK, but the evening wasn't, which seems a bit bizarre to me.

So their marching to a march/ parade, seems kinda pointless, especially when it's known to cause so much trouble.

If they can't find an appropriate route (which apparently they can't) then simply don't have the march, they can get on buses or drive into the city centre do there thing and f**k off home. Problem avoided.

[ForeverSinging]

No, because many communities are as divided as ever, and the bigotry of the parents lives on.

Well that's a bit depressing. Hopefully it sorts itself out eventually.

Also I didn't realise that before but from what that Long Time Lurker guy is saying this seems to be quits a but about people preserving their 'territory' which is super weird. Would you say that that's correct?

[LongTimeLurker]

.................to the cricket club. Will take you a little walk and show you the hotly disputed section of road in a few weeks.

Bo'ness folk used to be very skilled at building tunnels. The miners at Kinneil Colliery had tunnels reaching all the way over to Culross at one point, which made me wonder what planet Alex Salmond was on when he claimed a tunnel under the Forth wasn't a viable option for replacing the Road Bridge at Queensferry.

On the territorial thing mentioned immediately above, one way to rationalise it in Scottish terms maybe is that it's a bit like how rival young teams in and around Glasgow defend their local patch and tend to get into fights at pretty much the same locations year after year only with a political angle thrown into the mix and the international media showing up to broadcast it around the world.

[denltfc]

On the point of the south wanting a united Ireland, its in the founding aims of nearly all parties from Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Sinn Féin. I still strongly believe in an united Ireland and would campaign and vote that way. When I was younger I would of been of a more militant mindset but as you grow older you evolve. I have advocated for years within FF when we were in government we should of had a green paper ( no pun intended) on a united Ireland and the all institutions of the Republic have a united Ireland contingency plan the same as we did for the Euro changeover.

I was the mover of the Fianna Fáil motion that we organise and contest elections on a 32 county basis that was passed much to the shock of the leadership, I have a press release at home of Iris Robinson of the DUP denouncing me ... !!!

In a vote on a unification, it would be carried 70-30. The heart will triumph the head on this one for most voters. It would not be a pretty vote as images of the past and a billion tricolours would fly high from the poles. A simple line to be used in any vote " Did Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, Padraig Pearse, James Connolly and Michael Collins die for Ireland not to be an independent and united nation". The old 26 + 6 = 1 would get an airing too.

The problem is as time goes on, it gets further and further away from 1921. It pains me to say but I do feel differences when I chat to northerners. Any united Ireland will be a long process not an over nite thing as suddenly 20% of an united Ireland would not want to be part of it. I can see where a joint sovereignty would apply for a while and slowly like Britain with Hong Kong, they slowly withdraw.

An another interesting thing is and for the Union to survive, they need to start wooing Catholics into Unionist parties ... as slowly but surely the demographic tide turns against protestantism. The more Orange riots the better in that case and flag protests. There was an interesting article in the Irish Times at the weekend about this http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-catholic-unionists-1.1461624

[Jacksgranda]

On the point of the south wanting a united Ireland, its in the founding aims of nearly all parties from Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Sinn Féin. I still strongly believe in an united Ireland and would campaign and vote that way. When I was younger I would of been of a more militant mindset but as you grow older you evolve. I have advocated for years within FF when we were in government we should of had a green paper ( no pun intended) on a united Ireland and the all institutions of the Republic have a united Ireland contingency plan the same as we did for the Euro changeover.

I was the mover of the Fianna Fáil motion that we organise and contest elections on a 32 county basis that was passed much to the shock of the leadership, I have a press release at home of Iris Robinson of the DUP denouncing me ... !!!

In a vote on a unification, it would be carried 70-30. The heart will triumph the head on this one for most voters. It would not be a pretty vote as images of the past and a billion tricolours would fly high from the poles. A simple line to be used in any vote " Did Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, Padraig Pearse, James Connolly and Michael Collins die for Ireland not to be an independent and united nation". The old 26 + 6 = 1 would get an airing too.

The problem is as time goes on, it gets further and further away from 1921. It pains me to say but I do feel differences when I chat to northerners. Any united Ireland will be a long process not an over nite thing as suddenly 20% of an united Ireland would not want to be part of it. I can see where a joint sovereignty would apply for a while and slowly like Britain with Hong Kong, they slowly withdraw.

An another interesting thing is and for the Union to survive, they need to start wooing Catholics into Unionist parties ... as slowly but surely the demographic tide turns against protestantism. The more Orange riots the better in that case and flag protests. There was an interesting article in the Irish Times at the weekend about this http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-catholic-unionists-1.1461624

Do you think so? I don't think that would apply even if there were an all-Ireland vote. I have a hunch many middle class northern Roman Catholics would vote with their wallet and vote for the union - if the vote took place today. My own view is that the longer the two parts of Ireland are divided, the less likely reunification is.

Southerners look on northerners as a different breed, not just we protestants. The political parties in the RoI would have a canary if Northern Ireland voted to join the Republic - the last thing they would want would be approximately 900 000 voters with varying degrees of antipathy about being part of a united Ireland not to mention 250 000(?) bolshy Sinn Feinners.

I agree with your point about contingency plans (re an all Ireland).I often asked the question: "If Ireland were united tomorrow what would happen about health, education, income tax, civil service entrance qualifications, public transport, more mundane things like taxi regulations, road signs, motorway designations, car MOTs, MOT centres themselves etc etc" (None of these are insurmountable, I grant you, but I dare say there are plenty other examples). Trade Unions? Professional bodies? Police?

I think you are right about the riots - the more there are, the less likely unification.

[welshbairn]

The Southern parties play lip service to aspirations for a united Ireland, but in reality the last thing they want is to take on the security costs of stopping the Northerners murdering each other. Imposing it on Unionists would guarantee havoc throughout the island.

[denltfc]

Do you think so? I don't think that would apply even if there were an all-Ireland vote. I have a hunch many middle class northern Roman Catholics would vote with their wallet and vote for the union - if the vote took place today. My own view is that the longer the two parts of Ireland are divided, the less likely reunification is.

Southerners look on northerners as a different breed, not just we protestants. The political parties in the RoI would have a canary if Northern Ireland voted to join the Republic - the last thing they would want would be approximately 900 000 voters with varying degrees of antipathy about being part of a united Ireland not to mention 250 000(?) bolshy Sinn Feinners.

I agree with your point about contingency plans (re an all Ireland).I often asked the question: "If Ireland were united tomorrow what would happen about health, education, income tax, civil service entrance qualifications, public transport, more mundane things like taxi regulations, road signs, motorway designations, car MOTs, MOT centres themselves etc etc" (None of these are insurmountable, I grant you, but I dare say there are plenty other examples). Trade Unions? Professional bodies? Police?

I think you are right about the riots - the more there are, the less likely unification.

In a strange way the EU has shown the way forward, educational qualifications can fit into the European Qualifications Framework for one. Most regulations come from the EU now anyway so there is a certain amount of harmonisation. Road Signs would not be a problem over time .....as when they come up for renewal they would just be changed to the green dual name type we use of course NI signposts are miles not KM and of course the fun of speed limits and that.

Civil servants wise, our pay is much better than in the NIO. I get paid the same as someone who is 2 grades higher in the North. We could bribe the kids by letting them know you get your holidays in the last week of may in secondary school in non exam years or the second week of june for exam years.

Its an emotive subject unification and there will be a lack of logic. I do think we were closer to a united Ireland 50 years ago than we are today. On the issue of SF voters most of them have never read the Republican Socialist manifesto of SF and the voters of Fermanagh and Tyrone are just as rural and conservative as the voters of my own Roscommon/South Leitrim home constituency. Politics would change in that regard. What would be interesting is that 20% of the vote in the Dáil would most likely guarantee Unionists a role in nearly every coalition government.

It is in most cases idle speculation. The overwhelming majority have never considered a united Ireland unless singing a nation once again after 20 pints counts ...........

Edited July 17, 2013 by denltfc

[Jacksgranda]

In a strange way the EU has shown the way forward, educational qualifications can fit into the European Qualifications Framework for one. Most regulations come from the EU now anyway so there is a certain amount of harmonisation. Road Signs would not be a problem over time .....as when they come up for renewal they would just be changed to the green dual name type we use of course NI signposts are miles not KM and of course the fun of speed limits and that.

Civil servants wise, our pay is much better than in the NIO. I get paid the same as someone who is 2 grades higher in the North. We could bribe the kids by letting them know you get your holidays in the last week of may in secondary school in non exam years or the second week of june for exam years.

Its an emotive subject unification and there will be a lack of logic. I do think we were closer to a united Ireland 50 years ago than we are today. On the issue of SF voters most of them have never read the Republican Socialist manifesto of SF and the voters of Fermanagh and Tyrone are just as rural and conservative as the voters of my own Roscommon/South Leitrim home constituency. Politics would change in that regard. What would be interesting is that 20% of the vote in the Dáil would most likely guarantee Unionists a role in nearly every coalition government.

It is in most cases idle speculation. The overwhelming majority have never considered a united Ireland unless singing a nation once again after 20 pints counts ...........

i don't know if unionist parties would exist in a united Ireland, their raison d'etre would have vanished. Whether they would evolve into an Ulster Conservative Party I don't know. There would be an opening for the (Irish) Labour party to garner the working class vote, although that role might be filled by the PUP, under another name.

There's a possibilty the unionist vote would just vanish, middle class votes might go to Fine Gael?

But it is idle speculation - so much easier to talk about than the current mess! More riots last night, although they were described as "sporadic", but they seem to have been all over the place.

[LongTimeLurker]

The Donegal Progressive Party was the cover name used for the continuation of Unionism in a Donegal context and still had a councillor on the county council until relatively recently. There was also what was effectively a Unionist TD up until the early 60s until a bit of gerrymandering on constituency boundaries meant the numbers were no longer there to get someone elected. After that the vote went to Fine Gael as the least bad option.

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

Welcome back den, good to have your take on things.

[Co.Down Hibee]

The Southern parties play lip service to aspirations for a united Ireland, but in reality the last thing they want is to take on the security costs of stopping the Northerners murdering each other. Imposing it on Unionists would guarantee havoc throughout the island.

It would basically be a one way ticket to starting up the troubles again , possibly even worse than before.

[deky]

I assume the churches of Northern Ireland are full to capacity every Sunday?

[Greenlantern]

I assume the churches of Northern Ireland are full to capacity every Sunday?

Of course, free wine.

[Jacksgranda]

The Donegal Progressive Party was the cover name used for the continuation of Unionism in a Donegal context and still had a councillor on the county council until relatively recently. There was also what was effectively a Unionist TD up until the early 60s until a bit of gerrymandering on constituency boundaries meant the numbers were no longer there to get someone elected. After that the vote went to Fine Gael as the least bad option.

Surely not? I thought gerrymandering was the preserve of the failed orange supremacist kkk aligned terrorist harbouring statelet? Perhaps a united Ireland wouldn't be so great after all...

[Dr Koop]

I still don't understand why so many marches are needed, why don't they just have one?

Practice. It's a musician thing.

[The_Kincardine]

Surely not? I thought gerrymandering was the preserve of the failed orange supremacist kkk aligned terrorist harbouring statelet? Perhaps a united Ireland wouldn't be so great after all...

Just out of interest has anyone explored the KKK and OO connection? I know that Wunf and The OP have alluded to it but I'm curious to know what they have to back it up. I suspect nothing apart from a photoshopped banner.

Oh and any references to Bily Fullerton are nix.

[denltfc]

On the issue of gerrymandering, Until after the 1977 General election and the infamous "Tullymander" which backfired badly on FG/Lab and gave FF a 20 seat majority. The government of the day would of selected the electoral boundary commissions. I imagine part of the problem with Donegal was population wise ....using electionsireland.org as a source. You will see that Donegal East has 4 Seats and Donegal West has 3 seats in 1957. The population of Donegal in 1951 was 132,000 people and in 1961 it was 114,000. The constitution states under article 16'2 states a constituency is entitled to one TD for a maximum of 30,000 people to a minimum of 20,000 people. So Donegal were due only 6 seats.

I dont doubt that within Donegal TD's influenced which parts of the county were in North East and South West Constituency. William Sheldon took the last seat in Donegal East in 1957 and did not stand using electionsireland as a source in 1961 under the new boundaries.

[deky]

Of course, free wine.

I meant the Protestant ones. I'm sure all those loyal orangemen will attend their local church service on a Sunday and also carry out worthwhile Christian work in their communities.

It's what God would have wanted.

[LongTimeLurker]

On the issue of gerrymandering, ...

It is 30 to 40 years since I was told about that stuff, but I think the perception it was based on was that the traditionally strongly Presbyterian areas in the Foyle and Finn valleys were deliberately split between the two Donegal constituencies in a way that killed stone dead any chance of another independent/Unionist getting in again. From what I have read, FF liked to have lots of 3 TD constituencies in the rural west so they could get more TDs than their vote share really merited where they were at their strongest, while ensuring that there were lots of 4 TD constituencies in and around Dublin to keep the result a lot more proportional in the areas where FG and Labour were at their strongest. Ruling parties around the world get up to tricks like that.

[Dr Koop]

Why is 'Protestant' never abbreviated to 'Protty'. Answers on a Lollard Bible to ...