All things Dundee FC

[Granny Danger]

19 minutes ago, Soul Arab said:

Maybe some pictures of Morrissey will cheer up the funsters?

Aye but it will depress the rest of us.

[RossDee01]

Feel free to post a picture of Mr Wighton while you're at it. Or Paul McGowan, your choice.

[Fifespud]

Amazing how fragile football teams are.  If the penalty or 1 of the other chances went in against Partick, then we are climbing the league and full of confidence. It missed, we paid the price and now it's panic
I like the fact the McCann is trying to play football and I like that he is prepared to give young players a chance. My problem is that attractive positive football is more difficult than destructive defensive football and you need better players. 
I really don't know what the answer is: if the team clicks, we might go on a long winning run, but we are probably more likely to extend the winless streak.  All goes down to how big the pockets are of the owners, but personally I think we need to continue with McCann.

Totally agree. No time for wetting your keks imo.

Sooner or later I think we will get a break. I was far more concerned last season.

As far as strikers go McCann has exchanged Jordi and Loy with Moussa and AJLS, he inherited Haber and FEB obviously. He basically inherited 4 pish strikers and replaced them with 2 more pish ones.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

3 hours ago, bobbycoxblue said:

 

I have no issue with you lot posting on here. I think it keeps the rivalry alive ( let's face it your not good enough to do it on a football park , so this will have to do for now ).

 

 

Harsh.................................................................................................................................but fair.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Posted this in the match thread.

Dundee fans really do know how to show us how not bothered they are, by posting laughing faces and telling us how not bothered they are.

Oh - I'm bothered - but not because it was Hamilton but because it's getting so fucking predictable each week.

We can't score from open play.

We can't keep a clean sheet.

We don't have a consistent formation.

Our manager is trying to play football from the back with players (including our goalie) who can't play from the back.

Our strikers and midfielders couldn't hit a coo's arse with a banjo.

I could go on.

Was not particularly convinced by McCann's appointment - now even less so.

[Ludo*1]

I was doing a little bit of research (Now before I continue, I want to state that this isn't necessarily a pop at Bain, more our defensive frailties as a whole) in terms of clean sheets.

Scott Bain has played 107 league games for us and kept a total of 16 clean sheets which is a percentage of just 14.95%.

To put that in some context, Tomas Cerny has played 65 league games in the past, so just over half, and has kept 23 clean sheets in that period. Michal Szromnik played 5 games for United in the league, in the season they went down and kept 3 clean sheets.

We all know our defense loses some cheap goals, but I think these stats link to a communication problem in the defence. Do we have a leader in the back-line? Does Bain shout and organise his defence?

Over the past 3 seasons, Dundee have faced 458 shots on target. In the same time frame, Partick Thistle have faced 405. This season thus far, we have had 17 more shots against us than any other team in the league and at an average of 6.5 per game, we are at our worst for allowing 'shots on target' in the past three seasons. Are we looser in defence now than under Hartley?

Just a little bit of analysis (Don't think I compiled these figures myself, Google is quick to tell you) and wonder where people felt the problem was.

[K.T]

How many penalties has he saved?

[dd23]

I was doing a little bit of research (Now before I continue, I want to state that this isn't necessarily a pop at Bain, more our defensive frailties as a whole) in terms of clean sheets.
Scott Bain has played 107 league games for us and kept a total of 16 clean sheets which is a percentage of just 14.95%.
To put that in some context, Tomas Cerny has played 65 league games in the past, so just over half, and has kept 23 clean sheets in that period. Michal Szromnik played 5 games for United in the league, in the season they went down and kept 3 clean sheets.
We all know our defense loses some cheap goals, but I think these stats link to a communication problem in the defence. Do we have a leader in the back-line? Does Bain shout and organise his defence?
Over the past 3 seasons, Dundee have faced 458 shots on target. In the same time frame, Partick Thistle have faced 405. This season thus far, we have had 17 more shots against us than any other team in the league and at an average of 6.5 per game, we are at our worst for allowing 'shots on target' in the past three seasons. Are we looser in defence now than under Hartley?
Just a little bit of analysis (Don't think I compiled these figures myself, Google is quick to tell you) and wonder where people felt the problem was.

At the moment the arseing about with personnel seems a major factor. Of the 4 scores against us at Dens last week individual and collective errors account for each one. O’Dea blew it against Motherwell Wolters, the defence collectively and Hendry (daft pass out) on Saturday. For me it points to unfamiliarity breeding these mistakes. O ‘Dea is out with niggles almost as much as he plays and yet always seems to come straight back in.
As far as the left back comic cuts on Saturday is concerned what can you say.
He wants to play with wing backs, but seems unconvinced by any of the options he has in these positions on either flank. Perm any two from 5 at the moment.
That’s going to lead to misunderstandings and mistakes.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

31 minutes ago, K.T said:

How many penalties has he saved?

I think he saved one, can't remember when it was though.

[RossDee01]

I think he saved one, can't remember when it was though.

Yep, just the one. Was away at Inverness last season in the 2-2 game. Was the worst penalty ever and the most uncomfortable looking save from a penalty I have ever seen.

[harry94]

I was doing a little bit of research (Now before I continue, I want to state that this isn't necessarily a pop at Bain, more our defensive frailties as a whole) in terms of clean sheets.
Scott Bain has played 107 league games for us and kept a total of 16 clean sheets which is a percentage of just 14.95%.
To put that in some context, Tomas Cerny has played 65 league games in the past, so just over half, and has kept 23 clean sheets in that period. Michal Szromnik played 5 games for United in the league, in the season they went down and kept 3 clean sheets.
We all know our defense loses some cheap goals, but I think these stats link to a communication problem in the defence. Do we have a leader in the back-line? Does Bain shout and organise his defence?
Over the past 3 seasons, Dundee have faced 458 shots on target. In the same time frame, Partick Thistle have faced 405. This season thus far, we have had 17 more shots against us than any other team in the league and at an average of 6.5 per game, we are at our worst for allowing 'shots on target' in the past three seasons. Are we looser in defence now than under Hartley?
Just a little bit of analysis (Don't think I compiled these figures myself, Google is quick to tell you) and wonder where people felt the problem was.

Bain comes and takes the first cross against Hamilton and we're 0-0 going into half time. Against Ross County a similar story. Hamilton away game, he gets stuck in no mans land. There are quite a few of our goals lost this season where he's bade small errors that have cost us. I don't expect him to be perfect and not make a few errors but it's been a consistent pattern for a couple of seasons now.

His shot stopping doesn't make up for it. Expected saves stats on twitter (will link later) have him as one of the worst in the league over a long period.

Being blunt, there's not a first choice 'keeper in the league at any team who I'd prefer Bain over. I think it says a lot that the defence were calmer under a nervy Mitchell who was trying to throw things into his own net in each appearance (apart from Hamilton away).

[capt_oats]

13 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

I was doing a little bit of research (Now before I continue, I want to state that this isn't necessarily a pop at Bain, more our defensive frailties as a whole) in terms of clean sheets.

Scott Bain has played 107 league games for us and kept a total of 16 clean sheets which is a percentage of just 14.95%.

To put that in some context, Tomas Cerny has played 65 league games in the past, so just over half, and has kept 23 clean sheets in that period. Michal Szromnik played 5 games for United in the league, in the season they went down and kept 3 clean sheets.

We all know our defense loses some cheap goals, but I think these stats link to a communication problem in the defence. Do we have a leader in the back-line? Does Bain shout and organise his defence?

Over the past 3 seasons, Dundee have faced 458 shots on target. In the same time frame, Partick Thistle have faced 405. This season thus far, we have had 17 more shots against us than any other team in the league and at an average of 6.5 per game, we are at our worst for allowing 'shots on target' in the past three seasons. Are we looser in defence now than under Hartley?

Just a little bit of analysis (Don't think I compiled these figures myself, Google is quick to tell you) and wonder where people felt the problem was.

As someone who has no emotional attachment towards Dundee (other than thinking McCann's an arsehole) this says a lot about the problem you're having and while you can frame a lot of it on Bain, possibly in the same way we endured with Samson last season it probably points to something a lot deeper. If you're giving up that number of shots then it's the sort of thing that you can probably trace back to the training ground and coaching. It's about the whole team rather than just an individual. You're conceding chances because you're not doing things like stopping crosses, tracking runners or the midfield is standing off attackers that's as much organisational/tactical as it is individual.

I've been lurking over on TDB forum (out of genuine interest rather than a trolling sort of way) and I've seen threads about formations and line ups, whether the fans should be giving more support and some absolutely wild shouts like you're actually  a great team with excellent players and have just been unlucky in the most "if your Auntie had baws she'd be your Uncle" style imaginable.

Ultimately if the players don't know what they're supposed to be doing then it doesn't matter if it's a 442, 4231, 352 or how positive the fans are, you're not going improve. Obviously Bain spilling that shot against Thistle isn't something McCann can do anything about (short of just not playing Bain) but when you look at the other chances Dundee are giving up it says a lot more about how the team is set up and it's not about McCann's man management of players or "digging deep" it's about whether he can actually coach.

Alex Fisher has a chance last Wednesday that was almost exactly the same as the one Rojano scored for Accies 3rd on Saturday, the only difference (obviously) was that Bain made an exceptional stop from Fisher who was 3 yards out at the near post to meet Frear's cross from the bye line. If you're giving up the same sort of chances from those sort of positions week in, week out then questions should be asked as to what's going on during the week that's allowing that to happen.

Looking at obvious average stats like goals for and against you're averaging 1 goal a game vs almost 2 a game conceded;
For: 12
Against: 23
GPG For: 1
GPG Against: 1.91

So you're almost in a position where (on average) you're having to score 2 goals a game just to draw. That's a problem. Equally there's only been one two league matches this season (St Johnstone and Hearts at Dens) where Dundee have scored more than one goal in a game. You can obviously level that stat as having signed an absolute huddie like Moussa and still having him involved in the side but if you're 12 games deep into the season then as much as you should be looking at the defensive side of things you should probably be looking at transitions and the attacking side of things. IIRC Dundee's xG stats have gone off a cliff. At the start of the season in the games against Accies etc the side were creating good quality chances but just not taking them, now it seems they're just not creating chances that you're likely to score from and when you are creating chances they're falling to Moussa unmarked in the middle of the goal to pass the ball back to Tomas Cerny. A goal's a goal and all that but the lack of conversions from open play is something that should really be questioned as well.

The SPFL Radar sums it up here:

Obviously that's all stuff you already know, you guys are watching them week in week out but long story short, I don't think it's something that can really be distilled to "because Bain" or anything like that. I'd say it's a lot broader than that. I said in a post earlier in this thread that while I don't think the players in this Dundee side are anywhere near as good as some on TDB appear to have convinced themselves they are I'd have thought that someone who knew what they were doing and wasn't learning on the job would be able to get more out of them.

Edited October 31, 2017 by capt_oats
correction, you've scored more than once in the league twice; St Johnstone & Hearts at Dens

[Pinko]

Where I scratch my head is that McCann has clearly identified the defence as being a problem, that's why he brought in Meekings and Hendry.

The trouble is he seems more interested in getting them to pass and "play football" and less interested in getting them drilled at doing the necessary. The midfield has a part to play supporting the back 3/4 also of course.

As pointed out in a few posts we need to score around 2/3 goals per game at the moment to even stand a chance of winning. At the moment we simply can't do that with our front line so clean sheets absolutely have to be a must!

[harry94]

32 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

As someone who has no emotional attachment towards Dundee (other than thinking McCann's an arsehole) this says a lot about the problem you're having and while you can frame a lot of it on Bain, possibly in the same way we endured with Samson last season it probably points to something a lot deeper. If you're giving up that number of shots then it's the sort of thing that you can probably trace back to the training ground and coaching. It's about the whole team rather than just an individual. You're conceding chances because you're not doing things like stopping crosses, tracking runners or the midfield is standing off attackers that's as much organisational/tactical as it is individual.

I've been lurking over on TDB forum (out of genuine interest rather than a trolling sort of way) and I've seen threads about formations and line ups, whether the fans should be giving more support and some absolutely wild shouts like you're actually  a great team with excellent players and have just been unlucky in the most "if your Auntie had baws she'd be your Uncle" style imaginable.

Ultimately if the players don't know what they're supposed to be doing then it doesn't matter if it's a 442, 4231, 352 or how positive the fans are, you're not going improve. Obviously Bain spilling that shot against Thistle isn't something McCann can do anything about (short of just not playing Bain) but when you look at the other chances Dundee are giving up it says a lot more about how the team is set up and it's not about McCann's man management of players or "digging deep" it's about whether he can actually coach.

Alex Fisher has a chance last Wednesday that was almost exactly the same as the one Rojano scored for Accies 3rd on Saturday, the only difference (obviously) was that Bain made an exceptional stop from Fisher who was 3 yards out at the near post to meet Frear's cross from the bye line. If you're giving up the same sort of chances from those sort of positions week in, week out then questions should be asked as to what's going on during the week that's allowing that to happen.

Looking at obvious average stats like goals for and against you're averaging 1 goal a game vs almost 2 a game conceded;
For: 12
Against: 23
GPG For: 1
GPG Against: 1.91

So you're almost in a position where (on average) you're having to score 2 goals a game just to draw. That's a problem. Equally there's only been one league match this season (St Johnstone at Dens) where Dundee have scored more than one goal in a game. You can obviously level that stat as having signed an absolute huddie like Moussa and still having him involved in the side but if you're 12 games deep into the season then as much as you should be looking at the defensive side of things you should probably be looking at transitions and the attacking side of things. IIRC Dundee's xG stats have gone off a cliff. At the start of the season in the games against Accies etc the side were creating good quality chances but just not taking them, now it seems they're just not creating chances that you're likely to score from and when you are creating chances they're falling to Moussa unmarked in the middle of the goal to pass the ball back to Tomas Cerny. A goal's a goal and all that but the lack of conversions from open play is something that should really be questioned as well.

The SPFL Radar sums it up here:

Obviously that's all stuff you already know, you guys are watching them week in week out but long story short, I don't think it's something that can really be distilled to "because Bain" or anything like that. I'd say it's a lot broader than that. I said in a post earlier in this thread that while I don't think the players in this Dundee side are anywhere near as good as some on TDB appear to have convinced themselves they are I'd have thought that someone who knew what they were doing and wasn't learning on the job would be able to get more out of them.

8

I get what you are saying about Bain facing a lot more but I think it's much more down to him than you imply. There are so many moments where he has a chance to come out for something a few yards off his line but allows the defence to backtrack and get stuck under trying to defend. Over the course of a game, it increases the amount of possession that the opposition has in the last third and thus, allows our frailties to be exposed even worse.

We've lost 23 goals this season.

• 2/2 V Ross County - Bain gets a weak hand to the first shot and is slow to get down. The second goal is a cross at a good height for him on the six yard box.
• 1/3 V Hamilton - The second goal (on the stroke of half time) comes with a good Scott Boyd finish but Bain makes a very poor decision to charge out and gets caught in no mans land allowing the forward to tap it over into the net
• 1/2 V Aberdeen - Maybe a wee argument there that he could have taken the cross at the first goal in the box. Being a bit harsh though.
• 0/1 V Hibs
• 2/4 V Rangers - Opener is similar to the one V Ross County as he gets a weak hand to something. 4th goal a complete blunder. Other bad error nearly put Rangers in an early lead but went unpunished.
• 1/2 V St Johnstone - Poor decision making leads to a needless penalty
• 0/1 V Killie
• 0/1 V Hearts
• 0/1 V Celtic
• 1/2 V Thistle - Clear blunder spilling something
• 0/1 V Motherwell
• 2/3 V Hamilton - Perfect cross to take at a good height for the first goal. Maybe slow down to the second.

So of 23 goals we've conceded this year, it's possible to form some sort of argument about him being culpable of 10 of the 23. When you consider the fact that many of these are lost at critical times and then lead to the team throwing themselves forward to equalise, it makes sense that we end up losing even more and then he ends up facing more shots. The examples of really poor defending tend to come later in the game when we are exposed and generally, the first goals we lose don't really see anything in the way of individual errors. I don't believe our centre backs are as poor as the bottom of the league sides, they just have no presence behind them. The amount of time we don't get punished from free headers three yards out is frightening too.

Maybe, it'd be interesting to compile some stats that look at the shots Bain faces BEFORE we lose our first goal. I think that would tell a lot more of the story.

Motherwell midweek had a great domineering 'keeper in Carson. He made the odd mistake but for the most part, he was domineering and screaming at his defence for 90 minutes and had them duck under him while he took the pressure off anything in his range. The only time we really hear Bain's screams from the stands is when he's moaning at someone.

It's useless having a 'keeper' who makes the occasional outstanding reflex save if their poor performance multiplies the pressure on the back and thus increases the chance of conceding a goal. Bain's also a complete shitebag who passes blame after his own mistakes and then tweets like a teenage girl, letting dressing room business spill out into the public domain. We should be taking our chances and it's been a huge problem (Aberdeen, Hamilton, Thistle, even Rangers was level for a while and we could have been in the game) but it doesn't explain why we go on to lose so many games.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

Drop the c**t.

[Ludo*1]

Punt the c**t.

[an-dee]

I've stuck up for Bain a lot over the past two seasons but he is becoming a bit of a liability. Don't know if it's a confidence thing or if it's his attitude. When we first came and got his chance against Motherwell away I think, he was coming for everything, getting a good punch on it or collecting it and taking the pressure off. That lasted most of the season and we were all tipping him to get a big money move and Scotland caps. Saturday's opener is the perfect example of how that's changed. The ball bounces on the 6 yard line and he doesn't come to collect it, under absolutely no pressure. Yes, Wolters loses his man at the back post but that doesn't become an issue if Bain just comes and collects that cross - it was a nothing cross, one that should have been easily dealt with and yet we find ourself 1-0 down again with a mountain to climb. Then there's the mistake against Thistle which lets them back into the game. Even their second goal is rolled across the 6 yard box, it wasn't exactly hit with any pace. Maybe that's a bit harsh expecting him to collect that, but Meekings at the front post almost leaves it with the expectation Bain would deal with it. 

[an-dee]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

As someone who has no emotional attachment towards Dundee (other than thinking McCann's an arsehole) this says a lot about the problem you're having and while you can frame a lot of it on Bain, possibly in the same way we endured with Samson last season it probably points to something a lot deeper. If you're giving up that number of shots then it's the sort of thing that you can probably trace back to the training ground and coaching. It's about the whole team rather than just an individual. You're conceding chances because you're not doing things like stopping crosses, tracking runners or the midfield is standing off attackers that's as much organisational/tactical as it is individual.

I've been lurking over on TDB forum (out of genuine interest rather than a trolling sort of way) and I've seen threads about formations and line ups, whether the fans should be giving more support and some absolutely wild shouts like you're actually  a great team with excellent players and have just been unlucky in the most "if your Auntie had baws she'd be your Uncle" style imaginable.

Ultimately if the players don't know what they're supposed to be doing then it doesn't matter if it's a 442, 4231, 352 or how positive the fans are, you're not going improve. Obviously Bain spilling that shot against Thistle isn't something McCann can do anything about (short of just not playing Bain) but when you look at the other chances Dundee are giving up it says a lot more about how the team is set up and it's not about McCann's man management of players or "digging deep" it's about whether he can actually coach.

Alex Fisher has a chance last Wednesday that was almost exactly the same as the one Rojano scored for Accies 3rd on Saturday, the only difference (obviously) was that Bain made an exceptional stop from Fisher who was 3 yards out at the near post to meet Frear's cross from the bye line. If you're giving up the same sort of chances from those sort of positions week in, week out then questions should be asked as to what's going on during the week that's allowing that to happen.

Looking at obvious average stats like goals for and against you're averaging 1 goal a game vs almost 2 a game conceded;
For: 12
Against: 23
GPG For: 1
GPG Against: 1.91

So you're almost in a position where (on average) you're having to score 2 goals a game just to draw. That's a problem. Equally there's only been one league match this season (St Johnstone at Dens) where Dundee have scored more than one goal in a game. You can obviously level that stat as having signed an absolute huddie like Moussa and still having him involved in the side but if you're 12 games deep into the season then as much as you should be looking at the defensive side of things you should probably be looking at transitions and the attacking side of things. IIRC Dundee's xG stats have gone off a cliff. At the start of the season in the games against Accies etc the side were creating good quality chances but just not taking them, now it seems they're just not creating chances that you're likely to score from and when you are creating chances they're falling to Moussa unmarked in the middle of the goal to pass the ball back to Tomas Cerny. A goal's a goal and all that but the lack of conversions from open play is something that should really be questioned as well.

The SPFL Radar sums it up here:

Obviously that's all stuff you already know, you guys are watching them week in week out but long story short, I don't think it's something that can really be distilled to "because Bain" or anything like that. I'd say it's a lot broader than that. I said in a post earlier in this thread that while I don't think the players in this Dundee side are anywhere near as good as some on TDB appear to have convinced themselves they are I'd have thought that someone who knew what they were doing and wasn't learning on the job would be able to get more out of them.

You make a lot of good points and sometimes it's good to get an outsiders opinion because we all get emotional about Dundee so it's hard to stay objective. Against Motherwell, we were constantly getting battered down the right because Curran isn't a natural fullback and was standing off and letting everything come into the box. We've been far too passive defensively for years, this isn't a new thing. For what Kerr lacks going forward, there aren't many wingers get the better of him. He has to play on Saturday because Hibs have pace and ability out wide (maybe not so much ability with Boyle, but definitely pace), and I fear we'll get caught out time and time again if we play with two attacking wing backs again. 

[Widge]

It's easy to blame the goalkeeper for mistakes, but they're the ones who are most easily exposed and shown up. I think this is what's happening with Bain, he's in poor form admittedly, but he's having to make so many saves and blocks through a lack of defence that he's bound to let a few in. Every goalkeeper does. Where an outfield player can give the ball away constantly, if a goalkeeper lets a shot through him he's immediately the subject of abuse. Now I've not seen much of Bain and Dundee fans are in a much better place to discuss him, but for me and it's he same of any team. You have to look at what's in front of him and take into account the percentage of shots to mistakes, etc. I'm not convinced it'd be any higher than say a Joe Lewis this season or Alan Mannus, Craig Gordon even. It's just because he's being asked to do so much that it's the volume has become noticeable.

He's a solid premiership keeper and that's all he'll be, but he's capable of truly terrific saves and I've no doubt will and has won you points, possibly more than he's lost you since he joined.

[cilitbang]

Comparing Bain with Cerny? Behave! If Cerny wasn't injury prone he would be at a much higher level

Bain is a slightly above average keeper who gained plaudits from a team carried by Hemmings, Stewart and Harkins