All things Dundee FC

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, harry94 said:

I get what you are saying about Bain facing a lot more but I think it's much more down to him than you imply. There are so many moments where he has a chance to come out for something a few yards off his line but allows the defence to backtrack and get stuck under trying to defend. Over the course of a game, it increases the amount of possession that the opposition has in the last third and thus, allows our frailties to be exposed even worse.

We've lost 23 goals this season.

• 2/2 V Ross County - Bain gets a weak hand to the first shot and is slow to get down. The second goal is a cross at a good height for him on the six yard box.
• 1/3 V Hamilton - The second goal (on the stroke of half time) comes with a good Scott Boyd finish but Bain makes a very poor decision to charge out and gets caught in no mans land allowing the forward to tap it over into the net
• 1/2 V Aberdeen - Maybe a wee argument there that he could have taken the cross at the first goal in the box. Being a bit harsh though.
• 0/1 V Hibs
• 2/4 V Rangers - Opener is similar to the one V Ross County as he gets a weak hand to something. 4th goal a complete blunder. Other bad error nearly put Rangers in an early lead but went unpunished.
• 1/2 V St Johnstone - Poor decision making leads to a needless penalty
• 0/1 V Killie
• 0/1 V Hearts
• 0/1 V Celtic
• 1/2 V Thistle - Clear blunder spilling something
• 0/1 V Motherwell
• 2/3 V Hamilton - Perfect cross to take at a good height for the first goal. Maybe slow down to the second.

So of 23 goals we've conceded this year, it's possible to form some sort of argument about him being culpable of 10 of the 23. When you consider the fact that many of these are lost at critical times and then lead to the team throwing themselves forward to equalise, it makes sense that we end up losing even more and then he ends up facing more shots. The examples of really poor defending tend to come later in the game when we are exposed and generally, the first goals we lose don't really see anything in the way of individual errors. I don't believe our centre backs are as poor as the bottom of the league sides, they just have no presence behind them. The amount of time we don't get punished from free headers three yards out is frightening too.

Maybe, it'd be interesting to compile some stats that look at the shots Bain faces BEFORE we lose our first goal. I think that would tell a lot more of the story.

Motherwell midweek had a great domineering 'keeper in Carson. He made the odd mistake but for the most part, he was domineering and screaming at his defence for 90 minutes and had them duck under him while he took the pressure off anything in his range. The only time we really hear Bain's screams from the stands is when he's moaning at someone.

It's useless having a 'keeper' who makes the occasional outstanding reflex save if their poor performance multiplies the pressure on the back and thus increases the chance of conceding a goal. Bain's also a complete shitebag who passes blame after his own mistakes and then tweets like a teenage girl, letting dressing room business spill out into the public domain. We should be taking our chances and it's been a huge problem (Aberdeen, Hamilton, Thistle, even Rangers was level for a while and we could have been in the game) but it doesn't explain why we go on to lose so many games.

Obviously I'm limited in the amount I've seen of Dundee; LC games vs United, TV game vs Hibs, Alba vs Thistle and I watched the f**k out the game against us but while it's a fairly lukewarm take I see a lot of parallels between you guys and us last season with Samson in goals. A 'keeper who the defence have no confidence in, the upshot of which is they defend deep and allow sides chances and defensively they're having to compensate for those deficiencies. I can't speak for other 'well fans but with Samson in goals it was a case of when not if the other team scored. The only real issue was whether or not we'd have got one first and it allowed us to get a foothold in the game.

Ironically it was his performance against Dundee in McCann's first game in charge where he literally dropped the ball at O'Hara's feet at 0-0 in first half stoppage time that drew the curtain on Samson's shitshow of a Motherwell career. Robinson finally gave up on him and booted him out the team with Griffiths getting the final 4 games (we won 2 with the ICT fixture effectively a dead rubber).

It's interesting you highlight Carson and his performance with us, we've a conversation going on in our thread just now about just how much we've improved defensively under Robinson. Undoubtedly the fact that Carson's a relatively dominant keeper and very vocal with it is a huge part of it, he's the antithesis of Samson. Robinson worked with Carson in the Northern Ireland team, we paid a fee for him; he knew exactly the sort of keeper he wanted and exactly the sort of keeper we were getting when we signed him. Everything you point out about his game is correct.

However, James McFadden was on Sportsound the other week (after the Rangers LC game) and he went into detail about what Robinson's done with the team and this is actually what I'm getting at re: it being a broader issue at Dundee. Essentially, on top of ball work and technical stuff Robinson has the squad going through shitloads of shape drills, they spend a lot of time working on shape and positioning, according to McFadden there's a ridiculous amount of detail and that most of the squad warm up involves them working on positioning on the park. As a result you look at the number of 2nd balls Motherwell win (Saturday against Hibs excepted) that's not co-incidence, it's because they've been spending hours through the week working on it everyone knows their job and where they're supposed to be on the park.

While there's clearly a strong argument that Bain and the type of goalkeeper he is may be an issue, equally what's going on outfield in front of him probably isn't helping either. The two points aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Edited October 31, 2017 by capt_oats

[happyaccie]

1 hour ago, harry94 said:

I get what you are saying about Bain facing a lot more but I think it's much more down to him than you imply. There are so many moments where he has a chance to come out for something a few yards off his line but allows the defence to backtrack and get stuck under trying to defend. Over the course of a game, it increases the amount of possession that the opposition has in the last third and thus, allows our frailties to be exposed even worse.

We've lost 23 goals this season.

• 2/2 V Ross County - Bain gets a weak hand to the first shot and is slow to get down. The second goal is a cross at a good height for him on the six yard box.
• 1/3 V Hamilton - The second goal (on the stroke of half time) comes with a good Scott Boyd finish but Bain makes a very poor decision to charge out and gets caught in no mans land allowing the forward to tap it over into the net
• 1/2 V Aberdeen - Maybe a wee argument there that he could have taken the cross at the first goal in the box. Being a bit harsh though.
• 0/1 V Hibs
• 2/4 V Rangers - Opener is similar to the one V Ross County as he gets a weak hand to something. 4th goal a complete blunder. Other bad error nearly put Rangers in an early lead but went unpunished.
• 1/2 V St Johnstone - Poor decision making leads to a needless penalty
• 0/1 V Killie
• 0/1 V Hearts
• 0/1 V Celtic
• 1/2 V Thistle - Clear blunder spilling something
• 0/1 V Motherwell
• 2/3 V Hamilton - Perfect cross to take at a good height for the first goal. Maybe slow down to the second.

So of 23 goals we've conceded this year, it's possible to form some sort of argument about him being culpable of 10 of the 23. When you consider the fact that many of these are lost at critical times and then lead to the team throwing themselves forward to equalise, it makes sense that we end up losing even more and then he ends up facing more shots. The examples of really poor defending tend to come later in the game when we are exposed and generally, the first goals we lose don't really see anything in the way of individual errors. I don't believe our centre backs are as poor as the bottom of the league sides, they just have no presence behind them. The amount of times we don't get punished from free headers three yards out is frightening too.

Maybe, it'd be interesting to compile some stats that look at the shots Bain faces BEFORE we lose our first goal. I think that would tell a lot more of the story.

Motherwell midweek had a great domineering 'keeper in Carson. He made the odd mistake but for the most part, he was domineering and screaming at his defence for 90 minutes and had them duck under him while he took the pressure off anything in his range. The only time we really hear Bain's screams from the stands is when he's moaning at someone.

It's useless having a 'keeper' who makes the occasional outstanding reflex save if their poor performance multiplies the pressure on the back and thus increases the chance of conceding a goal. Bain's also a complete shitebag who passes blame after his own mistakes and then tweets like a teenage girl, letting dressing room business spill out into the public domain. We should be taking our chances and it's been a huge problem (Aberdeen, Hamilton, Thistle, even Rangers was level for a while and we could have been in the game) but it doesn't explain why we go on to lose so many games.

I agree with your assessment of Bain , but surely you cannot hold him accountable for players being unmarked three yards out , that is complicitly the failings of the defensive unit, whether this is down to what appears to be ineffectual coaching from McCann or the individuals inability to understand the coaching is up for discussion, what is clear is a lot of Dundee fans feel they have reasonable players within the squad ( I don't personally agree with this viewpoint ) but as I have only seen Dundee play once this season I shall take regular attendees views on board. Having taken this stance I can only come to the conclusion that McCann is unable to relay the message he is trying to instill on the training pitch , and for that message to be transferred to match situations, to single out Bain is the easy option ( although I tend to agree with your view on him) I feel the problems are more deep rooted.

Edited October 31, 2017 by happyaccie

[Twinkle]

Ive heard there was a big rammie at half time involving Bain and Mccann on Saturday. Maybe Neil was dishing out some home truths?

[RossDee01]

Bain's an arrogant c**t. Regardless of his performances in games having an attitude like that in the dressing room can rub off on other players.

[RossDee01]

1 hour ago, Twinkle said:

Ive heard there was a big rammie at half time involving Bain and Mccann on Saturday. Maybe Neil was dishing out some home truths?

Where did you hear this? Sounds like a rumour spread from the fact that Parish went into the dressing room at half time.

[happyaccie]

1 hour ago, Twinkle said:

Ive heard there was a big rammie at half time involving Bain and Mccann on Saturday. Maybe Neil was dishing out some home truths?

Mibbe Bains voiced his opinion on McCanns credentials i.e. Miller v Pedro = Bain v McCann 

[Fifespud]

Bain comes and takes the first cross against Hamilton and we're 0-0 going into half time. Against Ross County a similar story. Hamilton away game, he gets stuck in no mans land. There are quite a few of our goals lost this season where he's bade small errors that have cost us. I don't expect him to be perfect and not make a few errors but it's been a consistent pattern for a couple of seasons now.

His shot stopping doesn't make up for it. Expected saves stats on twitter (will link later) have him as one of the worst in the league over a long period.

Being blunt, there's not a first choice 'keeper in the league at any team who I'd prefer Bain over. I think it says a lot that the defence were calmer under a nervy Mitchell who was trying to throw things into his own net in each appearance (apart from Hamilton away).

The first Hamilton goal was never a keepers ball. It was Wolters and or the left sided CH completely losing their full back and imo it was Wolters.

[harry94]

The first Hamilton goal was never a keepers ball. It was Wolters and or the left sided CH completely losing their full back and imo it was Wolters.

Disagree entirely. Perfectly flighted and very direct for him to come and take. He would have been the overwhelming favourite from it and in a much better position than Skondaras (sp?) if he comes. Wolters is backing onto it and Bain can face it.

[Twinkle]

Where did you hear this? Sounds like a rumour spread from the fact that Parish went into the dressing room at half time.

Came from one of your players

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

Maybe if he spent less time fannying around with sleeve tattoos, and more time training, he would be better.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Just look at the 0-7 game against Aberdeen last season - that summed up our defensive frailties - we lost most of our goals in that game by not blocking runners at set-pieces or covering/blocking if a man got beat. Just fed of watching our opponents get free unchecked runs into the box to score - that's often not the faults of defenders but the midfield not tracking back or positioning appropriately.

[AnAnInginAneAnA]

Speaking of Bain, does anybody know who our second keeper on Dev League duty usually is? I would have thought Parish, but I just got a text saying Bain's been named as a sub in tonights game vs Partick. 

[harry94]

9 minutes ago, AnAnInginAneAnA said:

Speaking of Bain, does anybody know who our second keeper on Dev League duty usually is? I would have thought Parish, but I just got a text saying Bain's been named as a sub in tonights game vs Partick. 

We usually rotate with Gourlay and Ferrie. Gourlay joined Airdrie on loan a couple of weeks ago and made a start on Saturday so I would have thought he would be on the bench tonight and we'll just let Ferrie play.

EDIT: Would have thought Parish would play tonight if he was getting a start on Saturday.

Edited October 31, 2017 by harry94

[Louis Litt]

Has Bain ever featured for the development side since he came into the first team?

I don't want to speculate but I'm struggling to see a reason past it being a type of punishment. 

[Twinkle]

Has Bain ever featured for the development side since he came into the first team?
I don't want to speculate but I'm struggling to see a reason past it being a type of punishment. 

Did Mccann not recently bin the lad with the long name for taking a penalty he shouldnt have? Wouldnt surprise me if hes going to do the same with Bain

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

1 minute ago, Twinkle said:

 

 Wouldnt surprise me if hes going to do the same with Bain

 

Here's hoping.

[Pie Of The Month]

13 minutes ago, Louis Litt said:

Has Bain ever featured for the development side since he came into the first team?

I don't want to speculate but I'm struggling to see a reason past it being a type of punishment. 

We play our u20 games at Airdrie, it's definitely a punishment.

[Louis Litt]

9 minutes ago, Twinkle said:

Did Mccann not recently bin the lad with the long name for taking a penalty he shouldnt have? Wouldnt surprise me if hes going to do the same with Bain

 

He benched him for the next game and slated him in the press. 

[RossDee01]

Seems like a very odd situation with Bain if the whole half time thing is true. I can't imagine McCann went in there and singled him out since he wasn't really the main man to blame for the goal. I would have thought Bain instigated it and if that's the case McCann has no choice but to drop him.

 

[Ludo*1]

I've never said this before, because it's essentially shit-stirring, but I had heard that Bain wasn't well liked within the first team squad and there was a noticeable clique headed by him and Thomson. We've a totally different squad since then - but it came from a player. He's got one of the worst attitude's I've seen in my time watching Dundee and his performances are lacklustre, with some sticking up for him because he can pull off a worldie every now and then.