Devolve Oil Revenue?

[renton]

Sorry but when I have pointed to the fact that the independence campaign has for a large part been based upon oil and I've been told by some of the more vocal yessers on here that it is not. When I point out that the union didn't start 30 years ago, when oil was discovered and the referendum push began, again I'm told that its just a coincidence. When I've said in relation to this that it all seems a bit Man City and that a percentage of Yes voters are fairweather friends, well nothing really comes back from that. Scotland have done very well out of the union and for the parts of the UK that are suffering from WM too it seems a bit shit and chav-like that Salmond has pulled some people into this. If oil was not in the north sea would there be any push to go it alone? Maybe from a few haters but for most, I doubt it.....

Cuasation and correlation, the large scale extraction of oil coincided with massive social upheavals in Scotland, notable deindustrialisation, which recall was covered by the tax receipts from the north sea, it plugged that huge hole in finances while Thatcher gutted the country and reconfigured the City of London into it's present mode.

So it's not the case that all us 'grubby wee jocks' saw the oil and wanted it for ourselves, it's the fact that it's discovery allowed for a fairly brutal realignment of how our society worked and that we saw very little of the benefits of it.

Beyond that, the push for independence actually better relates to two causes: the loss of traditional revenue that the union brought via the Empire and the complete failure of the Labour party to advance the kind of society Scots wanted to see.

[strichener]

Should oil revenue from the North Sea be devolved to Holyrood as part of the batch of new powers?

It would surely settle the argument over the true value of oil to the respective Scottish/UK economies.

I don't think we would be able to cope with the burden TBH.

[LongTimeLurker]

If Westminster is serious about preserving the union then with full devo max surely we should control all revenue raised in scotland

Westminster could then send us a bill (independently costed) for services under reserved issues ie foriegn affairs and defence....

Good to see somebody remembers what devomax actually means. It seems to work OK for the Basque Country and Navarre in Spain, so no reason why that sort of arrangement couldn't be used within the UK.

[git-intae-thum]

Good to see somebody remembers what devomax actually means. It seems to work OK for the Basque Country and Navarre in Spain, so no reason why that sort of arrangement couldn't be used within the UK.

I think if they are serious about their vow, this is the type of compromise that they need to make.

Wonder what reasonable no voters think. (Barring narrow minded Britnats obviously for whom thinking is an abstract concept.)

[boabinoban]

Geez ra fuckin oil ya khunts an stick yer barnett up yer erse.

[Enigma]

Is tax on Scottish fisherman barrnettable? If so why not tax on oil?

[Alert Mongoose]

I don't see they wouldn't want to do it. After all they have spent the last two years telling us how insignificant it is to the UK economy and it is far too volatile to rely on anyway...

[git-intae-thum]

Is tax on Scottish fisherman barrnettable? If so why not tax on oil?

I agree its currently a con. As it is likely that the proposed versions of devomax will be.

Why not scrap the Barnett altogether.

That would shut the SE wingers up with the scrounger nonsense.

Let Scotland control all revenue raised in Scottish territory, then Westminster can send us the population share bill for the reserved matters.

Whats the problem with that. Seems like win win for most on both sides.

[AUFC90]

I agree its currently a con. As it is likely that the proposed versions of devomax will be.

Why not scrap the Barnett altogether.

That would shut the SE wingers up with the scrounger nonsense.

Let Scotland control all revenue raised in Scottish territory, then Westminster can send us the population share bill for the reserved matters.

Whats the problem with that. Seems like win win for most on both sides.

They know that if they let us keep all our revenue and spend it better than them, then it's curtains for the union. That's why there will be nothing like fiscal autonomy anytime soon.

[Jie Bie]

They know that if they let us keep all our revenue and spend it better than them, then it's curtains for the union. That's why there will be nothing like fiscal autonomy anytime soon.

However, polling suggests that DevoMax/Fiscal Autonomy/Home Rule (whatever you want to call it) is the preferred option for a majority of the Scottish people.

I think most would agree if it was on the ballot last week then it would have won handsomely.

If the people of Scotland continually ask for it (perhaps by electing SNP MP's and MSP's) then it's up to Westminster to say No, and take whatever consequences come their way.

[gannonball]

No, Scotland shouldnt have take the burden of all this uncertainty over oil. I mean what happens if we only make a sh*t load instead of f*ck load? I just couldnt sleep at night not knowing, thank god someone else will share that burden with us.

[git-intae-thum]

However, polling suggests that DevoMax/Fiscal Autonomy/Home Rule (whatever you want to call it) is the preferred option for a majority of the Scottish people.

I think most would agree if it was on the ballot last week then it would have won handsomely.

If the people of Scotland continually ask for it (perhaps by electing SNP MP's and MSP's) then it's up to Westminster to say No, and take whatever consequences come their way.

The issue is naebody knows what devomax is.

The term could apply to any variant of further devolved powers.

True devomax is when there is no block grant and Scotland controls all revenue raised in Scotland, thereafter contributing an agreed fee to central govt for reserved matters.

[Confidemus]

No, Scotland shouldnt have take the burden of all this uncertainty over oil. I mean what happens if we only make a sh*t load instead of f*ck load? I just couldnt sleep at night not knowing, thank god someone else will share that burden with us.

I like Celtic supporters these days. I feel dirty.

[LongTimeLurker]

Geez ra fuckin oil ya khunts an stick yer barnett up yer erse.

...which is basically what happens with Alberta in Canada and Alaska in the USA. It's nothing out of the ordinary in a state that is genuinely federal, and gasp shock horror they both still seem to be able to have a shared currency despite having states/provinces with wildly varying fiscal policies and tax raising potentials.

[Elixir]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29342142

Sickening in so many ways.

[bowmore]

It depends on whether ou believe those islands to belong to Scotland or the UK, which boils down to whether you think Scotland is a country or not. What do you think?

I'm not sure that anywhere belongs to anyone. I think that people lay claims to things. If Scotland has the right right to a referendum to leave the UK then surely it follows that Shetland, for example, should be allowed the same democratic choice should it ever desire this. If the Falklands ever decide to join Argentina, it'll be there choice etc.

[bowmore]

Cuasation and correlation, the large scale extraction of oil coincided with massive social upheavals in Scotland, notable deindustrialisation, which recall was covered by the tax receipts from the north sea, it plugged that huge hole in finances while Thatcher gutted the country and reconfigured the City of London into it's present mode.

So it's not the case that all us 'grubby wee jocks' saw the oil and wanted it for ourselves, it's the fact that it's discovery allowed for a fairly brutal realignment of how our society worked and that we saw very little of the benefits of it.

Beyond that, the push for independence actually better relates to two causes: the loss of traditional revenue that the union brought via the Empire and the complete failure of the Labour party to advance the kind of society Scots wanted to see.

A commitment to commonsense realism is all you need here.

Yes around this time there was hardship but the reality is that the UK has faced hardship prior to this and in that century too – the great depression, the world wars, post war economic realities etc. The differential here is that parallel to this hardship there was a serious economic lever discovered off the coast of Scotland circa 1970 to the benefit of us all.

I think that we can all agree that movements require political appeal and yes, you’re right, there was deindustrialisation around 1970 but it was UK wide and all of the UK was feeling the pinch. The fact that the SNP at the time chose to run a campaign “Its Scotland’s Oil” just smacks of further evidence of cnutish chav behaviour….nothing seems to have changed! Prior to this nationalist push the appeal ddn’t exist and even with this it is still not enough, as much as that irks the few.

There isn’t any doubt that Salmond pushed North Sea resources, and the money they generate, as a rationale to split e.g. an economic engine to drive an independent Scotland. I just find the notion rationale rather crass. I imagine it would be like having a husband/wife who wins some money on the lottery and then fucks you off! Thankfully most didn’t buy into this but the fact that some did, and hearing Salmond and Sturgeon standing on public platforms going on about how much money they give to WM and get scraps back really distasteful. As I’ve mentioned, there’s no admission of the state Scotland was in prior to the Union against how far we have come together….it is all about nationalistic bigotry and greed from those types.

[LongTimeLurker]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29342142

Sickening in so many ways.

...and who would have believed Liberace was gay, I never saw that one coming.

[boabinoban]

I'm not sure that anywhere belongs to anyone. I think that people lay claims to things. If Scotland has the right right to a referendum to leave the UK then surely it follows that Shetland, for example, should be allowed the same democratic choice should it ever desire this. If the Falklands ever decide to join Argentina, it'll be there choice etc.

Why? The Orkneys and Shetlands are part of Scotland. It's as simple as that.

PLUS comparing the Falklands to the Orkneys and Shetland is a bit of a joke really.

[LongTimeLurker]

It's never people from Shetland that come out with this pish nowadays. In the referendum Shetland was just 3% short of SNP strongholds in Aberdeenshire on voting Yes. Things are not like they were back in the 1970s. Beyond that Shetland doesn't have its own legal system (the udal thing is clutching at straws it was extinguished centuries ago), so the whole comparison has no basis in reality.