General Election 2015

[FuzzyAffro]

Eh, no we're not. You just haven't come to terms with the referendum result yet. Hopefully you do soon though as I believe people like you actually frighten No voters from "crossing over".

We are. I explained my point quitte well, Miliband and Cameron have already ruled out another referendum. That's regardless of how the people of Scotland vote in two weeks, next year at HR and opinion polls showing they want one. Doesn't matter the leader of the Tories and Labour have already said no,

I am not over the result of the referendum that is true, I think yes voters who are just don't get it yet. I think many are maybe being a bit naive and consoling themselves with events since, but they are of little importance compared to the vote in September, just tiny sideshows.

As for scaring off no voters though I think that is hyperbolic nonsense, we may never even get another vote and if we do its years away. What I say now on a football forum is not going to have any effect.

Feck what politicians want. It's what people want that matters. Tartan tatties are shit stirrers who would gladly spill blood.

Fuzzy dahling you're sooo money supermarket.

This is the only time I will reply to you. Its not what people want that matters, we are disenfranchised within the UK, so what we want doesn't matter at all.

[Baxter Parp]

Will it be though? There is no law, no act of parliament that says a majority of SNP MPs in Scotland gives the SNP the right to call a UDI - only a vague, half gentleman's agreement made in pre devolution days when such a feat was beyond impossible. The fact that a democratic vote was held on the subject 8 months ago would easily repel any argument from the SNP that they could legislate for such a UDI.

UDI is, de facto, a rejection of Westminster rule. Doesn't matter what legislation exists or not.

[speckled tangerine]

We're basically in that positon. Both the prospective PM's have said they would not agree to another referendum under any circumstances. That's despite Scotland currently having a majority SNP govt and about to return another one next year, and about to have a majority at WM of SNP MP's too. And all polls since indyref showing a majority want another referendum.

Realpolitik will come to the fore.

It's a general election campaign here and all the parties are spouting pish to win votes and said election. If push comes to shove is Miliband gonna turn the front door keys down to Number Ten? Is he f**k! Would an SNP confidence and supply agreement be able to extract meaningful concessions? Absolutely.

As I said elsewhere the pragmatists seem to be ruling the roost in SNP HQ these days. Let's ensure as many seats as possible are won to extract the best deal we can, with as many powers. Use them successfully to our advantage and scunner some of the more torylite aspects of Ed's lot.

I feel another referendum will be pushed on the agenda from SOUTH of the border if anything, stoked no doubt by an indignant right wing press who will feel, incorrectly, that we've stolen their ball.

[Baxter Parp]

So you would rather start Scotland .off undemocratiically with possible widespread violence.

Good lord.

[FuzzyAffro]

I meant he might not have a say as he may not be PM

I think it would be difficult for him to get away with it as it would look stunningly awful internationally for him to defy a democratic decision while at the same time bigging up democracy in other parts of the world

But the other person who might be PM has ruled it out too. So its ruled out either way.

Spain have just done what you described with Catalonia, do you think they will suffer as a result? London could easily do the same to Scotland and there would be nothing we could really do about it and no real consequences for them internationally. We don't champion democracy btw, we are enemies of democracy in most cases.

[FuzzyAffro]

Realpolitik will come to the fore.

It's a general election campaign here and all the parties are spouting pish to win votes and said election. If push comes to shove is Miliband gonna turn the front door keys down to Number Ten? Is he f**k! Would an SNP confidence and supply agreement be able to extract meaningful concessions? Absolutely.

As I said elsewhere the pragmatists seem to be ruling the roost in SNP HQ these days. Let's ensure as many seats as possible are won to extract the best deal we can, with as many powers. Use them successfully to our advantage and scunner some of the more torylite aspects of Ed's lot.

I feel another referendum will be pushed on the agenda from SOUTH of the border if anything, stoked no doubt by an indignant right wing press who will feel, incorrectly, that we've stolen their ball.

It will never come from south of the border. Some crazed right-wing wallopers maybe, but we saw during indyref how valuable we obviously are to them, they will never propose a referendum in which they might lose our resources.

They will seek to practice divide and rule, dilute Scottish identity, anglicise us, colonise us, impoverish us, smear us. They won't propose a referendum.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

You make some good points and I accepted as soon as I brought it up it was something that will never happen. I am speaking purely hypothetically. However, look at the post below yours, the Tories consulting the monarch about her intervening to prevent a Labour/SNP government, and ally that to the ex-ambassador on here a week ago saying the UK government will be using MI5 right now to thwart independence and the SNP.

That's how serious this all is, that's how high the stakes now are. In that context UDI doesn't seem nearly so out there. I ask all yes voters on here if independence was to never happen and this was the only way of achieving it (bearing in mind the leaders of both Labour and the Tories have now said they would block another referendum under any circumstances) would you be okay with it? I certainly would

Yeah except Hibs can't do that champ, slight difference. Theoretically the Scottish govt can.

No they couldn't. They've specifically stated that this election is not them asking for a mandate to hold another vote, never mind declaring Independence. Legally, practically, morally this election won't give anyone the right to declare Independence. Your rage about September is affecting your grip on reality.

If the SNP asked the people for another mandate, Scotland voted for it and the UK gov said forget it - then we'd have to start thinking about other options. We're not nearly there yet and your "they cheated us" whinging and hypothetics don't make it so.

[Och aye the noo]

We are. I explained my point quitte well, Miliband and Cameron have already ruled out another referendum. That's regardless of how the people of Scotland vote in two weeks, next year at HR and opinion polls showing they want one. Doesn't matter the leader of the Tories and Labour have already said no,

I am not over the result of the referendum that is true, I think yes voters who are just don't get it yet. I think many are maybe being a bit naive and consoling themselves with events since, but they are of little importance compared to the vote in September, just tiny sideshows.

As for scaring off no voters though I think that is hyperbolic nonsense, we may never even get another vote and if we do its years away. What I say now on a football forum is not going to have any effect.

This is the only time I will reply to you. Its not what people want that matters, we are disenfranchised within the UK, so what we want doesn't matter at all.

coitus interruptus.

[renton]

UDI is, de facto, a rejection of Westminster rule. Doesn't matter what legislation exists or not.

It matters in so much as Westminster chooses to honour it, or not.

[Suspect Device]

Don't know where to put it, but TESCO has just announced a £6.4b loss.

I laughed anyway.....

Not quite sure what's so funny about one of Scotland's largest employers being in the shit. It will also affect the tax paid by them in future so not really a good thing.

[Baxter Parp]

It matters in so much as Westminster chooses to honour it, or not.

It's not a question of "honouring" anything. To deny the Scots their UDI, they'd have to send in the troops. If the SNP had run on a mandate of UDI when a majority of Scotland sends SNP MPs to Westminster, that is (which used to be the plan at one point IIRC). At which point it becomes a UN/International Court matter based on the right of self-determination.

[oddly optomistic]

But the other person who might be PM has ruled it out too. So its ruled out either way.

Spain have just done what you described with Catalonia, do you think they will suffer as a result? London could easily do the same to Scotland and there would be nothing we could really do about it and no real consequences for them internationally. We don't champion democracy btw, we are enemies of democracy in most cases.

I would say our situation is slightly different from Catalonia in that Scotland is already a country. I didn't say we champion democracy but the UK along with other western countries like to purport that they do

[speckled tangerine]

Not quite sure what's so funny about one of Scotland's largest employers being in the shit. It will also affect the tax paid by them in future so not really a good thing.

I think the point was their role in the indyref. That they were absolutely sure an Independent Scotland would see higher prices, be bad for business and their banking arm would be hived off down south.

Turns out it's just a badly run business. ????

[FuzzyAffro]

No they couldn't. They've specifically stated that this election is not them asking for a mandate to hold another vote, never mind declaring Independence. Legally, practically, morally this election won't give anyone the right to declare Independence. Your rage about September is affecting your grip on reality.

If the SNP asked the people for another mandate, Scotland voted for it and the UK gov said forget it - then we'd have to start thinking about other options. We're not nearly there yet and your "they cheated us" whinging and hypothetics don't make it so.

I think you just don't know what you're talking about tbh.

I would say our situation is slightly different from Catalonia in that Scotland is already a country. I didn't say we champion democracy but the UK along with other western countries like to purport that they do

We do like to purport that but in reality we prop up dictatorial and autocratic regimes all over the globe and always have. We have helped overthrow many democratically elected governments.

[oddly optomistic]

Good lord.

I said there was a possibility. I don't think anyone could foresee what would happen, but look at some of the idiots in George Square after they won the referendum. Now imagine their ilk with a sense of injustice that their democratic will had been overturned.

[Baxter Parp]

"Coming up on @itvthismorning, a man who can steal your watch without you noticing". @David_Cameron: "Who's that, Alec Salmond?"

Fucksake.

[FuzzyAffro]

David Cameron's father was a prolific tax avoider, as is his father-in-law. Somebody should mention these things when he comes out with disgusting shite like that.

The fucking chancellor of the exchequer has a £4 million offshore trust fund in the Cayman Islands, to keep it out of the hands of.....you've guessed it the chancellor.

You couldn't make this shit up, this is better together.

[Urban Gorilla]

Realpolitik will come to the fore.

It's a general election campaign here and all the parties are spouting pish to win votes and said election. If push comes to shove is Miliband gonna turn the front door keys down to Number Ten? Is he f**k! Would an SNP confidence and supply agreement be able to extract meaningful concessions? Absolutely.

As I said elsewhere the pragmatists seem to be ruling the roost in SNP HQ these days. Let's ensure as many seats as possible are won to extract the best deal we can, with as many powers. Use them successfully to our advantage and scunner some of the more torylite aspects of Ed's lot.

I feel another referendum will be pushed on the agenda from SOUTH of the border if anything, stoked no doubt by an indignant right wing press who will feel, incorrectly, that we've stolen their ball.

This ^^^^

It indeed we do get Labour/SNP the seethe from the south will be so much that there will be so much mud slinging that both sides will want another referendum

[FuzzyAffro]

It doesn't matter what 'both sides' want (Polls showed people in England overwhelmingly wanted to keep the UK together so it would take a hell of a shift anyway) it only matters what's on offer. Nobody will have it in their manifesto from the unionist side and the unionists could, as they have said they will, just block any attempts by us to call one.

One of our only options would then become to do what Catalonia did and have a non-binding informal referendum. Or declare UDI.

[Baxter Parp]

MichaelRosen

12m ago

2829

Grant Shapps
is several chaps.
People in the
media
think he fiddled wikipedia.
Grant Shapps
never lies.
He mistakenly
over firmly denies.