Vbhoy Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Hearts and Rangers obviously have potential, but I'm not going to apologise for how well Saints have done over the past couple of years. It's been phenomenal. One way I think Scottish football is adversely affected at the moment is the lack consistent European campaigners. This means their co-efficient isn't up to much, which means they hit seeded teams early (e.g. Caley). A country with a smaller pool of successful teams can get club co-efficients above their normal station because they play early on every year, so build up a bank of wins. Nor should you! Wright's been impressive for you, I hope you can keep him for a long time. It's up to the bigger clubs to improve. Hearts seem to be doing a lot of things right now, it'll be interesting to see how they do next year. Is Collins basically suggesting country coefficient decide how many slots each country gets - but then club coefficient decide at what round they enter? That would suit us, not sure how if they could make that work in practice though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/john-collins-celtic-are-a-much-better-champions-league-team-than-uefa-say-we-are.129533308 Apparently you'd always make it if we weren't all so shite What a fucking spanner Collins is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 One way I think Scottish football is adversely affected at the moment is the lack consistent European campaigners. This means their co-efficient isn't up to much, which means they hit seeded teams early (e.g. Caley). . And long may it last. Different clubs doing well in the league and cups can only be a good thing for the domestic Scottish game, which is what really matters. f**k all this 'we need the big clubs to succeed' crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I actually agree with the principle Collins is coming out with. A club's standing in Europe should be solely down to how they have performed, not others that just happen to come from the same league. Aren't Man City going to get a top seeding in the Champions League despite being shite at it just because they come from England? It's just another side effect of UEFA looking after the big tv audience countries at everyone else's expense. Their Fair Play branding is extreme hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elixir Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 If we had a similar coefficient now to what we had in the past when we got two Champions League spots, would the Scottish Cup winners or side who finished third in the Premiership go straight into the Europa League group stages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I actually agree with the principle Collins is coming out with. A club's standing in Europe should be solely down to how they have performed, not others that just happen to come from the same league. Aren't Man City going to get a top seeding in the Champions League despite being shite at it just because they come from England? It's just another side effect of UEFA looking after the big tv audience countries at everyone else's expense. Their Fair Play branding is extreme hypocrisy. up to a point... It is precisely because of the horrible moneyed clubs and TV audiences that Collins (and Celtic) are so desperate to be involved although if UEFA didn't look after the money at least we'd be spared p***ks like Collins whining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I actually agree with the principle Collins is coming out with. A club's standing in Europe should be solely down to how they have performed, not others that just happen to come from the same league. Aren't Man City going to get a top seeding in the Champions League despite being shite at it just because they come from England? It's just another side effect of UEFA looking after the big tv audience countries at everyone else's expense. Their Fair Play branding is extreme hypocrisy. Even if judged on their own merits, Celtic surely wouldn't be guaranteed automatic entry. And Collins forgets that his team benefits from the rest of us being diddies - if we weren't Celtic wouldn't have won the league last year. But I do think that as champions of Scotland, Celtic should at least be going through to the final qualifying round, if not getting direct entry. The fact that Arsenal - who haven't been champions for more than a decade - get straight in is indefensible. At the end of the day 7-2 is right. European football is nice, but improving the quality of the domestic game is far more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 If we had a similar coefficient now to what we had in the past when we got two Champions League spots, would the Scottish Cup winners or side who finished third in the Premiership go straight into the Europa League group stages? No. You have to be in top 12 to get EL groupstage slot (often top 13 if some titleholder slot unused). If we got up from 23rd to even 16th our current: CL - QR2 EL - QR2 EL - QR1 EL - QR1 would only improve to: CL - QR2 EL - QR3 EL - QR2 EL - QR1 http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/access2015.html Really have to break into top 15 for things to take-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Leyenda Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I actually agree with the principle Collins is coming out with. A club's standing in Europe should be solely down to how they have performed, not others that just happen to come from the same league. Aren't Man City going to get a top seeding in the Champions League despite being shite at it just because they come from England? It's just another side effect of UEFA looking after the big tv audience countries at everyone else's expense. Their Fair Play branding is extreme hypocrisy. Not anymore. From this season, the top 8 seeds will be the champions from the top 8 countries. Means the likes of Real Madrid and Man City will be second seeds at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The OP Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 But when smaller clubs on a fraction of Celtic's resources are criticised for dragging Celtic down despite beating teams ranked well above them, it's surely no surprise when we hold Celtic to higher standards. Seems a bit chicken and egg to me. Teams will be ranked well above if you underperform. I also think that, whilst Rosenborg and Luzern would've been higher, Minsk and Trnava (if higher at all) were unlikely to have been significantly so. It's also worth noting that the Norwegian league is ranked below ours, although the Swiss will be well above. I also thought that the Groningen result was decent, but again I'd imagine they were ranked around the same as Aberdeen because they never qualify for Europe and so would be wholly reliant on the Dutch league coefficient. I personally don't believe we'll see a Scottish team other than Celtic in European football proper for a while. I think Motherwell are the only side in recent years to go out to a team who actually ended up in the EL group stage. I don't know who to blame for this - I don't really agree with John Collins that it's all the diddies fault and I don't really agree with y'all that it's all Celtic's fault. And to be honest, the three ties we're likely to get this year should be easier to negotiate than some of the one-off ties (like Ajax, Basel and Spartak Moscow) that we've faced as Champions in previous years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10menwent2mow Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 That Jackson article is utter utter drivel. Does he have even a basic understanding of the seeding principles for the Europa League. When the Dons last made the groups we had to win one qualifier (vs Dnipro). The lowest seeded team due to be in QR4 is Southampton, if we get that far, we could face Borussia Dortmund or Athletic Bilbao. And let's face it, if Celtic had got papped out when they should have last season, all they may have contributed would have been the 2 wins against kr Reykjavik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vbhoy Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 If we didnt get our magnificent 3-0 victory over Legia we'd still be in the EL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 And let's face it, if Celtic had got papped out when they should have last season, all they may have contributed would have been the 2 wins against kr Reykjavik. Aye he managed to skirt over that - and Saints' and Dons' wins over higher-ranked teams - to reach the diametrically opposite opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vbhoy Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Aye he managed to skirt over that - and Saints' and Dons' wins over higher-ranked teams - to reach the diametrically opposite opinion. Because it's factually incorrect. If the result had stood against Legia we would have been in the EL play-off against Aktobe and would probably still be in the EL. We would have picked up more or less the same amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10menwent2mow Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Hence why I said, MAY have been all they contributed. The way Celtic were performing over two legs against European opposition, there is no guarantee they'd have beaten Aktobe or anyone else to reach the EL. It's not factually incorrect as it's not a fact that Celtic would've made the EL, it's an assumption and as the gadgee says in under siege 2, assumption is the mother of all f**k up's. It's such a lazy piece of journalism, it's all very well saying Saints, ICT and the Dandies should reach the group stages but to fail to acknowledge that we will each have to beat three higher ranked teams to do so is just lazy. Oh and Celtic will be seeded all the way through this having to beat three lower ranked teams than themselves. The failure of Celtic in Europe last year had nothing to do with anyone other than themselves and to blame it on everyone else is just typical Glasow-centric pish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Even if judged on their own merits, Celtic surely wouldn't be guaranteed automatic entry. And Collins forgets that his team benefits from the rest of us being diddies - if we weren't Celtic wouldn't have won the league last year. But I do think that as champions of Scotland, Celtic should at least be going through to the final qualifying round, if not getting direct entry. The fact that Arsenal - who haven't been champions for more than a decade - get straight in is indefensible. To be honest, I pay as little attention to Celtic as possible so not sure what their record is but it's really the principle I agree with more than where they should be entering the tournament. Doesn't suit the accountants though of course. Not anymore. From this season, the top 8 seeds will be the champions from the top 8 countries. Means the likes of Real Madrid and Man City will be second seeds at best. Ah yes. For some reason I was thinking City were still champions when I wrote originally. To highlight the ridiculousness even further, if Bournemouth won next season's EPL they would go into the Champions League as one of the 8 top seeds just because they were English. Farcical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BraveheartGordon Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 You would naturally expect a team the size and clout of Rangers would help our co-efficient. But that throws into greater relief the reverse fact: that Rangers all too frequently under-performed. Granted, they have had European success too, but this was isolated. We need to let go of this notion that having Rangers back in European competition would be some sort of shortcut to an improved co-efficient. Look at the recent history Between 2009 and 2012, Rangers record in Europe was W1 D10 L9. St Johnstone's since is W2 D5, L3. On results alone, Saints' record stands up. But consider the disparity in resources. Throw in the fact that Rangers' frequently gained automatic Champions' League entry, or at least seeded status in qualifying rounds and I don't think it's a stretch to say that Saints - who have never been seeded - have contributed more. Believe me I want St Johnstone to do well, and they were excellent against Rosenborg, but you need to consider relative strength of opponents before the stat you brought up has any sort of credance, its about the stretch of a universe to say St Johnstone (yet to make a group stage appearance) contributed as much as our last club to win a european knockout tie (2011) or a European final in 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doonhamer doon south Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Are the coefficiant points over both legs or per game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realmadrid Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Per game Thus season as we have 4 teams in the competitions it's 0.25 points per win in qualifiers. 0.125 points per draw, then double that in the group stage and onward. As the English have 8 teams this year they are on 0.125 per win in the qualification stage and then 0.25 from the group stages onward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doonhamer doon south Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 So it's different points per win/draw depending on your ranking in coefficiant or did I mis read that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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