When will indyref2 happen?

[Loondave1]

Lol what an avi. You let your club die, a traitor to your country. Most possibly a sex offender. Another clown hated by his mother. I would cheer an acid attack on your union jack contacts 

I refer you to my previous post, I'm not a faceless warrior. What a minter. The definition of a VL. 

This is magnificent.I see it as the logical conclusion as McGlashan type IQs circle the plughole before dissapearing into the drain they belong.The seethe is strong in this one..pleasing.

[Antlion]

11 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

No and ive no idea how NO equates with being a monarchist any more than YES if both sides have no interest or policies on removing them.I think it's just another lazy assumption .

Perhaps because an anti-monarchy party holds more of a position in Holyrood (indeed, as the other anti-regionalist party, the SNP would rely on them to pass referendum legislation) than Westminster. Then there is of course the fact that the royals are and always have been unionists (even before the Treaty of Union).

[Antlion]

12 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

I never said i was born into the Royal family.I jest.No i have always been anti monarchy unfortunately most parties won't touch that issue with a barge pole especially in Scotland.

Especially in Scotland? Please provide evidence that the Scottish parties (the SNP and the Greens) are more likely to avoid discussing the question of hereditary monarchy than the UK parties. In fact, even the SNP's stance of actually stating it's up to the people of Scotland whenever they wish to open the question seems far more radical than anything I've ever seen from the UK parties, who generally don't condone or endorse questioning of our feudal betters at all, ever.

[Loondave1]

Especially in Scotland? Please provide evidence that the Scottish parties (the SNP and the Greens) are more likely to avoid discussing the question of hereditary monarchy than the UK parties. In fact, even the SNP's stance of actually stating it's up to the people of Scotland whenever they wish to open the question seems far more radical than anything I've ever seen from the UK parties, who generally don't condone or endorse questioning of our feudal betters at all, ever.

I accept the "especially " point but the idea that parties only open up issues if joe public asks is patently untrue.They have policies on their own pet projects regardless . I'd hazard a guess a substantial amount of SNP voters are anti monarchy and its the thought of scaring off the soft voters that keeps that lid firmly on. Independent from the UK but still under an English based monarch ? Nah.

[Antlion]

5 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

I accept the "especially " point but the idea that parties only open up issues if joe public asks is patently untrue.They have policies on their own pet projects regardless . I'd hazard a guess a substantial amount of SNP voters are anti monarchy and its the thought of scaring off the soft voters that keeps that lid firmly on. Independent from the UK but still under an English based monarch ? Nah.

So you'd rather be a politically-dependent region under an English based monarch than a politically-independent region under an English-based monarch (political independence meaning, by its nature, that the people of Scotland can end the Scottish monarchy whenever they choose)?

The SNP were created and exist to scrap the Treaty of Union, not the Union of the Crowns.

You don't really have a leg to stand on criticising the SNP's stance on monarchy (which I disagree with, incidentally) as long as you support monarchist parties and reject the opportunity for Scotland to ever have the power to scrap its monarchy without England's agreement.

If you've retreated to pretending you reject Independence partly because you don't want an independent Scotland under an English monarch, then you're either a liar or an imbecile.

[Loondave1]

So you'd rather be a politically-dependent region under an English based monarch than a politically-independent region under an English-based monarch (political independence meaning, by its nature, that the people of Scotland can end the Scottish monarchy whenever they choose)?

The SNP were created and exist to scrap the Treaty of Union, not the Union of the Crowns.

You don't really have a leg to stand on criticising the SNP's stance on monarchy (which I disagree with, incidentally) as long as you support monarchist parties and reject the opportunity for Scotland to ever have the power to scrap its monarchy without England's agreement.

If you've retreated to pretending you reject Independence partly because you don't want an independent Scotland under an English monarch, then you're either a liar or an imbecile.

But where are these "monarchist parties" ? They have no policies on the monarchy any more than the SNP have apparently therefore YES/NO has no relevance to any of this.I don't want independence but if i did or we were i wouldn't want it to continue under the monarchy.However it's not an issue that bothers me on a daily basis.

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

But where are these "monarchist parties" ? They have no policies on the monarchy any more than the SNP have apparently therefore YES/NO has no relevance to any of this.I don't want independence but if i did or we were i wouldn't want it to continue under the monarchy.However it's not an issue that bothers me on a daily basis.

The SNP, the Labour Party and the Conservatives are all, to varying degrees, monarchist parties. England is broadly more monarchist than Scotland (I'm afraid you'll have to look the polling data up yourself if you're actually interested). If Scotland went independent, the question of the monarchy would undoubtedly come up after the scrapping of the Treaty of Union - for one thing, an already indefensible institution would be even more ludicrous by not even being based in Scotland. If Scotland remains a region of the UK, the question of the monarchy will never come up (at least not in our lifetimes) and certainly won't be scrapped - England loves it. As you know, being a region of the UK means dancing to the tune of the whole UK electorate.

[Loondave1]

The SNP, the Labour Party and the Conservatives are all, to varying degrees, monarchist parties. England is broadly more monarchist than Scotland (I'm afraid you'll have to look the polling data up yourself if you're actually interested). If Scotland went independent, the question of the monarchy would undoubtedly come up after the scrapping of the Treaty of Union - for one thing, an already indefensible institution would be even more ludicrous by not even being based in Scotland. If Scotland remains a region of the UK, the question of the monarchy will never come up (at least not in our lifetimes) and certainly won't be scrapped - England loves it. As you know, being a region of the UK means dancing to the tune of the whole UK electorate.

I would suggest that "indefensible institution " is too important to leave as an issue.Bring it up now and get off the fence.Presumably the SNP can be categorised as "monarchist to a degree" like everyone else with no policy on its removal.It genuinely makes me laugh when i see Nicola or Eck fall in line when the Queen turns up to tickle their tummies.

[Antlion]

22 hours ago, Loondave1 said:

I would suggest that "indefensible institution " is too important to leave as an issue.Bring it up now and get off the fence.Presumably the SNP can be categorised as "monarchist to a degree" like everyone else with no policy on its removal.It genuinely makes me laugh when i see Nicola or Eck fall in line when the Queen turns up to tickle their tummies.

Why? Their primary interest is in scrapping the Treaty of Union, not the Union of the Crowns. That's for the electorate to choose to vote on scrapping afterwards, as it's a separate union from that of 1707.

You have no purchase on criticising the SNP on this particular one, as you happily vote for monarchist parties and apparently didn't laugh (or don't see the need to mention it) when you saw/see Blair, Brown, Miliband, Cameron, May and even Corbyn make their little obeisances to an old lady in a crown due to her magical blood and the position it gives her. But hey - demand things of the SNP you don't of the parties you vote for, because they want Scotland to be a nation state and as a Scot that's just beyond the pale, what?

It's bizarre watching you feign anti-monarchism and bemusement that the SNP aren't making scrapping it their priority when you actively vote for monarchist parties which don't even mention the monarchy unless it's to say what a great job the octogenarian does waving, holding dinners and dodging tax. Ok maybe not the last one - criticism of the head of the British aristocracy is not welcomed by the British parties.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Antlion

[Loondave1]

That last point will also cover that "British party" the SNP presumably.

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, Loondave1 said:

That last point will also cover that "British party" the SNP presumably.

I suppose it would - is that the only party whose attitude towards the Windsor clan you're interested in laughing at and criticising? Because you've said not a dickie bird about the regionalist parties' rampant monarchism. Curious. Do I detect a whiff of the old "SNPBAD" from one the resident regionalists?

[Loondave1]

"Rampant monarchism" i must have missed that bit as regards other parties.Im probing the SNP as a neutral position on the monarchy seems somewhat at odds with Nationalism.Again i would suggest that's just a device to keep the moderates onboard and hope the roasters don't notice.Again its all left talk for the voters but when it comes to action......

[Gordon EF]

25 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

"Rampant monarchism" i must have missed that bit as regards other parties.Im probing the SNP as a neutral position on the monarchy seems somewhat at odds with Nationalism.Again i would suggest that's just a device to keep the moderates onboard and hope the roasters don't notice.Again its all left talk for the voters but when it comes to action......

Why is a neutral position on the monarchy at odds with supporting independence? You support the union but are supposedly anti-monarchy? Is that any more "at odds"?

Could it not just be that there are probably a range of views within the party and its members and the position of the monarchy isn't really a priority atm? So why risk any blow back from taking a hard position which would likely anger some people within and without the party, no matter which way it went? I realise as a 'Labour man', you're more used to breathtakingly moronic acts of political self-harm / suicide from your party but not all politicians are as stupid as Labour politicians.

Also, since when was being lukewarm / borderline supportive of a fucking monarchy considered "left"?

Edited September 28, 2016 by Gordon EF

[ayrmad]

9 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Why is a neutral position on the monarchy at odds with supporting independence? You support the union but are supposedly anti-monarchy? Is that any more "at odds"?

Could it not just be that there are probably a range of views within the party and its members and the position of the monarchy isn't really a priority atm? So why risk any blow back from taking a hard position which would likely anger some people within and without the party, no matter which way it went? I realise as a 'Labour man', you're more used to breathtakingly moronic acts of political self-harm / suicide from your party but not all politicians are as stupid as Labour politicians.

Also, since when was being lukewarm / borderline supportive of a fucking monarchy considered "left"?

I think we've got far more to worry about before we ever get onto what we do or don't do with the monarchy. 

[Dipped Flake]

51 minutes ago, ayrmad said:

I think we've got far more to worry about before we ever get onto what we do or don't do with the monarchy. 

exactly.  I think that in an independent Scotland, Lizzie would be the first and last Queen/King of modern Scotland but that would be up to the people of Scotland to decide and I don't really have that strong a view on it

[ICTJohnboy]

A wee bump....

 

I'm pissed off with David Mundell telling the toly party conference, yesterday, and Ruth Davidson today, that there is now no appetite for a second indyref in Scotland.

Anyone on here believe that the desire for independence is softening?

Is there anyone who, having voted Yes last time, would vote no next time?

[vikingTON]

He consulted with "victorious" Tory leader north of the border who won fewer votes than Margaret Thatcher.

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

A wee bump....

 

I'm pissed off with David Mundell telling the toly party conference, yesterday, and Ruth Davidson today, that there is now no appetite for a second indyref in Scotland.

Anyone on here believe that the desire for independence is softening?

Is there anyone who, having voted Yes last time, would vote no next time?

The irony is off the charts - so naturally never mentioned to them - given that Scotland has shown no appetite for Tory governments for decades, and yet they think they are its spokesmen. I think the fawning of the regionalist press has gone to wee Ruthie's head. She really does seem to think she's possessed by Britannia and speaks for North Britain.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

The irony is off the charts - so naturally never mentioned to them - given that Scotland has shown no appetite for Tory governments for decades, and yet they think they are its spokesmen. I think the fawning of the regionalist press has gone to wee Ruthie's head. She really does seem to think she's possessed by Britannia and speaks for North Britain.

It's tremendously funny seeing wee Ruthie strut around trying to convince everyone that they're cutting the SNP's support despite the only show in town increasing its vote from 2011, and the tories only truly benefitting from the utterly hilarious implosion of the Labour North British branch office.

These are good times for the SNP despite the laughable media coverage attempts to show otherwise. The Tories have peaked, Labour are absolutely rooked, and almost no one gives a single solitary f**k about the Lib Dems.

What a time to be alive.

[DAFC.]

Scottish Yoon dafties right now amidst all the hardcore, right-wing racism in England and Brexit chaos: