When will indyref2 happen?

[Antlion]

Just now, strichener said:

The UK is the most aggressive nationalistic state on earth?  Have you forgot to take your medication?

Historically it certainly has been. I thought your lot wanted it to be "great again". You must be delighted with the plans for post-Brexit Britain - Westminster is taking back control!

[strichener]

Just now, Antlion said:

Historically it certainly has been. I thought your lot wanted it to be "great again". You must be delighted with the plans for post-Brexit Britain - Westminster is taking back control!

Nice attempt to change tense. 

Meantime, I am glad that I have you to do my thinking for me and letting me know what delights me.  If only we could get an anti-EU independence movement in Scotland, then I would be delighted.

[Antlion]

17 minutes ago, strichener said:

Nice attempt to change tense. 

Meantime, I am glad that I have you to do my thinking for me and letting me know what delights me.  If only we could get an anti-EU independence movement in Scotland, then I would be delighted.

You had a chance to help convince Scots to vote against EU membership a few months ago. I believe the ubiquitous Tom Harris was the voice of the movement. He may not be pro independence, but given EU membership is not Scotland's choice, I can't see how an argument for a independent state's position (when that independent state doesn't exist) is yet relevant.

[strichener]

42 minutes ago, Antlion said:

You had a chance to help convince Scots to vote against EU membership a few months ago. I believe the ubiquitous Tom Harris was the voice of the movement. He may not be pro independence, but given EU membership is not Scotland's choice, I can't see how an argument for a independent state's position (when that independent state doesn't exist) is yet relevant.

You appear to be suggesting that scotland's voice both matters and does not matter in the same paragraph.  If it wasn't Scotland's choice then why did I need to help convince Scots?  There were sufficient numbers in the franchise that agreed with my position, including a significant number of Scots.

[Baxter Parp]

43 minutes ago, strichener said:

You appear to be suggesting that scotland's voice both matters and does not matter in the same paragraph.  If it wasn't Scotland's choice then why did I need to help convince Scots?  There were sufficient numbers in the franchise that agreed with my position, including a significant number of Scots.

Good question, why bother?

[Antlion]

3 hours ago, strichener said:

You appear to be suggesting that scotland's voice both matters and does not matter in the same paragraph.  If it wasn't Scotland's choice then why did I need to help convince Scots?  There were sufficient numbers in the franchise that agreed with my position, including a significant number of Scots.

Scotland's voice on whether or not the UK actually remains within or leaves the UK does not matter. But Scotland's stated intention that its people should remain EU citizens, as expressed at the ballot box, is likely part of the reason why no independence-supporting parties want to deprive Scots of European rights and citizenship. I'm not sure what is difficult about that.

For Scotland as a state to be in or out of the EU would require Scotland to be a state first, and then to have that debate. But you threw your lot in with the British Nationalists. Hell mend you (and the rest of us, I suppose).

[strichener]

1 minute ago, Antlion said:

Scotland's voice on whether or not the UK actually remains within or leaves the UK does not matter. But Scotland's stated intention that its people should remain EU citizens, as expressed at the ballot box, is likely part of the reason why no independence-supporting parties want to deprive Scots of European rights and citizenship. I'm not sure what is difficult about that.

For Scotland as a state to be in or out of the EU would require Scotland to be a state first, and then to have that debate. But you threw your lot in with the British Nationalists. Hell mend you (and the rest of us, I suppose).

And you are doing it again.  I didn't vote in the referendum on EU membership as an Independence supporter, the fact that these are two separate issues appear to allude you as does the concept of a franchise.

I also didn't throw my lot in with anyone, I voted for what I thought was best and in the interests of the country.  That this matched some nationalists, racists, independence supporters or some other classifications of people (do we know how pagans, atheists and the disabled voted as collectives??) and not others concerns me not one iota.

[Antlion]

6 minutes ago, strichener said:

And you are doing it again.  I didn't vote in the referendum on EU membership as an Independence supporter, the fact that these are two separate issues appear to allude you as does the concept of a franchise.

I also didn't throw my lot in with anyone, I voted for what I thought was best and in the interests of the country.  That this matched some nationalists, racists, independence supporters or some other classifications of people (do we know how pagans, atheists and the disabled voted as collectives??) and not others concerns me not one iota.

And that country would be the UK. How's that working out for you? Those best interests looking well cared for?

[strichener]

1 minute ago, Antlion said:

And that country would be the UK. How's that working out for you? Those best interests looking well cared for?

You are back to telling me what I think.  You are incorrect, I think that it is in Scotland's interests to be out of the EU and if this aligns with the interests of the UK then so be it but at no time when I was considering my vote did I think "I wonder what is best for the people of Leatherhead or Gateshead".

[Antlion]

18 minutes ago, strichener said:

You are back to telling me what I think.  You are incorrect, I think that it is in Scotland's interests to be out of the EU and if this aligns with the interests of the UK then so be it but at no time when I was considering my vote did I think "I wonder what is best for the people of Leatherhead or Gateshead".

Ah, but you stated that the UK's EU membership and Scotland's statehood are two entirely separate things. The vote in June, then, was on the UK's future relationship with the EU, which you *presumably* believe is best managed by the Tories, as they are the party negotiating the UK's (which, of course, includes Scotland) relationship. This is not me "telling you what you think" (I'm not all that interested); it's what your own claimed actions state. You wanted the UK to leave the EU as one country (because that's what the single vote was about). You can't not have known that would mean the UK government deciding Scotland, as part of the UK's, relationship with the EU.

[strichener]

1 hour ago, Antlion said:

Ah, but you stated that the UK's EU membership and Scotland's statehood are two entirely separate things. The vote in June, then, was on the UK's future relationship with the EU, which you *presumably* believe is best managed by the Tories, as they are the party negotiating the UK's (which, of course, includes Scotland) relationship. This is not me "telling you what you think" (I'm not all that interested); it's what your own claimed actions state. You wanted the UK to leave the EU as one country (because that's what the single vote was about). You can't not have known that would mean the UK government deciding Scotland, as part of the UK's, relationship with the EU.

Surely there is no dispute over this?  No, this is not the case.  I voted to leave the EU not because of who I think is best able to determine the UK/EU relationship but due to there being a referendum on the matter.  If Labour had been in power at the time then I would still have voted to leave.  It requires some warped logic to attribute leaving the EU with support for an individual party.

No it doesn't as I have already stated. Once again, if we had held the vote in an independent Scotland then I would have voted the same way.  I would have been quite happy to see Scotland as an Independent country that voted to leave the EU even if the rUK decided to stay.  That is a consequence of the people of Scotland rejecting independence as part of an earlier referendum, I am happy that I voted the correct way in that referendum also.  I have already provided my thoughts on the SNP using the EU referendum to drive Indy2 and I fear that it will lead to a second defeat with the SNP losing support to govern as a consequence.  If this does happen it will put the issue to bed for my generation.

[Antlion]

32 minutes ago, strichener said:

Surely there is no dispute over this?  No, this is not the case.  I voted to leave the EU not because of who I think is best able to determine the UK/EU relationship but due to there being a referendum on the matter.  If Labour had been in power at the time then I would still have voted to leave.  It requires some warped logic to attribute leaving the EU with support for an individual party.

No it doesn't as I have already stated. Once again, if we had held the vote in an independent Scotland then I would have voted the same way.  I would have been quite happy to see Scotland as an Independent country that voted to leave the EU even if the rUK decided to stay.  That is a consequence of the people of Scotland rejecting independence as part of an earlier referendum, I am happy that I voted the correct way in that referendum also.  I have already provided my thoughts on the SNP using the EU referendum to drive Indy2 and I fear that it will lead to a second defeat with the SNP losing support to govern as a consequence.  If this does happen it will put the issue to bed for my generation.

But we didn't hold a vote to leave in an independent Scotland. We voted, as you've pointed out, on the single issue of the UK being an EU member and/or the current UK government negotiating an exit. Other people seemed to understand this quite well - including the anti-EU left wing chap (I can't recall his name) who said he was not pro-EU, but did not trust the UK government offering the vote to deliver Brexit in any way beneficial to the people of the UK. That is the long and short of it. You now state, fairly baldly, that Leave was the right way to vote - which is your right. So are you happy with the direction of Brexit? A "yes" or "no" in any colour will do.

[strichener]

4 minutes ago, Antlion said:

But we didn't hold a vote to leave in an independent Scotland. We voted, as you've pointed out, on the single issue of the UK being an EU member and/or the current UK government negotiating an exit. Other people seemed to understand this quite well - including the anti-EU left wing chap (I can't recall his name) who said he was not pro-EU, but did not trust the UK government offering the vote to deliver Brexit in any way beneficial to the people of the UK. That is the long and short of it. You now state, fairly baldly, that Leave was the right way to vote - which is your right. So are you happy with the direction of Brexit? A "yes" or "no" in any colour will do.

Yes.  There is only one direction and that is out of the EU, everything else is up for negotiation and had not, the last time I looked, had anything decided.  Of course if you are ideologically tied to the EU then any direction out of the EU will be negative.

[Alan Stubbs]

The Herald have outdone themselves with this choice of headline.

New polls suggests hard Brexit not a game changer for SNP

Quote

The BMG survey found 47 per cent of people against having another referendum, compared to 38 per cent in favour, and 12 per cent undecided.

Of those opposed, 12 per cent said a hard Brexit would change their mind, 75 per cent said it would have no effect, and 13 per cent didn’t know.

Among those wanting a second referendum, 39 per cent said it should be before the UK triggered Article 50 next March, 33 per cent said it should be later, and 28 per cent were indifferent.

Once BMG factored in the response to the follow-up Brexit question, 43 per cent backed a second referendum, 42 per cent were against, and15 per cent were undecided, better for the SNP but not a solid base on which to go to the country, despite the First Minister ramping up the Brexit threat.

 

[doulikefish]

As expected "if Scotland is taken out of the single market against her will,indy ref will be called"
Cue loads of yoons on the news channels

[Michael W]

We've gone from "out the EU against Scotland's will" to "out of the single market against Scotland's" will? Worth pointing out again that the vote was whether or not to leave the EU, not the single market. 

[Baxter Parp]

2 minutes ago, Michael W said:

We've gone from "out the EU against Scotland's will" to "out of the single market against Scotland's" will? Worth pointing out again that the vote was whether or not to leave the EU, not the single market. 

The referendum was advisory and not binding so what's your point?

[Baxter Parp]

Same poll, different headlines.

[strichener]

17 minutes ago, Michael W said:

We've gone from "out the EU against Scotland's will" to "out of the single market against Scotland's" will? Worth pointing out again that the vote was whether or not to leave the EU, not the single market. 

Not sure why there is the need to change to rhetoric TBH.  I would assume that they think this will appeal to a wider number of the electorate.

 

14 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

The referendum was advisory and not binding so what's your point?

Straw clutching.

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, strichener said:

Straw clutching.

In what way?  It's the truth.