When will indyref2 happen?

[Hillonearth]

HD TV's got a lot to answer for - just saw Mundell getting interviewed with a case of dandruff that looked like he was wearing a gramme of coke on each shoulder.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Let's hope so... surely the Scots won't be so servile to accept that

A significant proportion would genuinely love that, which is a depressing thought.

[Colkitto]

Putting aside whether you're a Yes or No voter (if you can that is!) this is about basic democracy. 

We are now in a situation in Scotland where we now have to campaign for the right to democracy WITHIN the UK. 

The government in the mother of parliaments in London has just ignored the will of a democratically elected parliament in Scotland.

That's an absolute disgrace and anyone who believes in democracy as a basic right of the people should feel outraged

[John Lambies Doos]

Putting aside whether you're a Yes or No voter (if you can that is!) this is about basic democracy. 
We are now in a situation in Scotland where we now have to campaign for the right to democracy WITHIN the UK. 
The government in the mother of parliaments in London has just ignored the will of a democratically elected parliament in Scotland.
That's an absolute disgrace and anyone who believes in democracy as a basic right of the people should feel outraged

Totally agree. Posted the same questions on the no voters thread. Let's see if they really are 'proud scots'

[Shades75]

14 minutes ago, Colkitto said:

Putting aside whether you're a Yes or No voter (if you can that is!) this is about basic democracy. 

We are now in a situation in Scotland where we now have to campaign for the right to democracy WITHIN the UK. 

The government in the mother of parliaments in London has just ignored the will of a democratically elected parliament in Scotland.

That's an absolute disgrace and anyone who believes in democracy as a basic right of the people should feel outraged

The people that want another independence referendum denied by Westminster should also, in the interests of consistency, get behind a campaign to get rid of the Scottish parliament for it is obvious that they don't want the Scottish parliament to function.

[ayrmad]

19 minutes ago, Colkitto said:

Putting aside whether you're a Yes or No voter (if you can that is!) this is about basic democracy. 

We are now in a situation in Scotland where we now have to campaign for the right to democracy WITHIN the UK. 

The government in the mother of parliaments in London has just ignored the will of a democratically elected parliament in Scotland.

That's an absolute disgrace and anyone who believes in democracy as a basic right of the people should feel outraged

Most haven't got the balls to be outraged I'm afraid.

[ayrmad]

38 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

HD TV's got a lot to answer for - just saw Mundell getting interviewed with a case of dandruff that looked like he was wearing a gramme of coke on each shoulder.

You obviously don't realise what happens in these gentleman' clubs that politicians attend.

[kirkyblue2]

Be interesting to see what Plan B is.

[John Lambies Doos]

The people that want another independence referendum denied by Westminster should also, in the interests of consistency, get behind a campaign to get rid of the Scottish parliament for it is obvious that they don't want the Scottish parliament to function.

This. The next referendum should be a straight question between Full independence or Full direct Westminster rule

[Crùbag]

Greens were good today. Young boy Greer on fire.

Murdo Fraser had a complete meltdown. Ranting maniac.

Like it or not, this is democracy and Holyrood with PR is way more democratic than Westminster. Similarly, Brussels didn't deny or delay the UK's referendum so let's not have this bool about EU dictatorship.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Crùbag

[Alan Stubbs]

On 15/11/2016 at 07:41, ScotSquid said:

I don't think any Scottish party, or anyone, should ever rule out Scottish Independence. That's as stupid a position as the 'Indy at any cost' morons in the SNP.

Ad Lib's contention here seems sensible. Post Brexit the LDs should always consider whether being part of the British union in preference to the EU is preferable for Scotland. That wasn't a consideration before but it obviously is now. 

I think at the moment it quite clearly is the former, but that may change in time. If nothing else having a more neutral stance on independence might allow the LDs to hoover up the disaffected SNP vote once they don't deliver a referendum.

 

On 01/12/2016 at 15:23, ScotSquid said:

Uh huh. Both sides will have to compromise. The UK and the EU. But it will be more difficult in future for rUK to trade with iScotland if iScotland is in the EU and the UK isn't. This is true of both rUK and iScottish businesses. 

And as Scotland relies massively on English trade, anything which makes that more expensive and difficult is horrific for Scotland.

Hence why leaving the internal market we currently have with the UK is a catastrophic choice. And as the GERS figs show even with the current environment of trade, Scotland has an enormous deficit to address in day One. 

The conditions are atrocious just now for Scottish independence. Which is why there isn't going to be a referendum . We know this.

Well maybe apart from you and Lambie's doos. Which is awkward for you .

 

On 02/12/2016 at 12:54, ScotSquid said:

Really? What is your definition of 'any time soon'? Give me a timescale.

There are large numbers of moron Nats desperate for a referendum in 2018.

They are going to be sniffling into their Saltires again though as there isn't going to be one. Watching this realisation dawn over the coming months will be amusing.

 

On 15/11/2016 at 17:35, ScotSquid said:

Your second paragraph there highlights the problem. Its widely recognised that the ref was lost because of the economic argument. Which the SNP's garbage White Paper sought to deceive about by choosing a 2 year period it cherry picked. The GERS figures since 2014 just reinforce the disaster indy would be for Scotland financially. 

So how is any new white paper going to address that gap? Convincingly. It can't. Which is why we've had transcendental nationalism from Sturgeon, and a lot of noise around immigration, the direction of moral travel etc. Anything but the economy, which she knows she can't win an argument on versus staying in the UK.

But that being the case, in a putative referendum are people suddenly going to ignore the financial consequences and vote Yes, in the current climate of massive gap in the GERS figures. Not a chance. That's why Nicola Sturgeon doesn't want another referendum.

I don't think the SNP being nose deep in the trough and riddled with sleaze will make much difference, true though that is.

 

On 06/01/2017 at 11:16, ScotSquid said:

And so the climbdown begins. As many of us already knew, there won't be an indyref2 this decade. Probably not in the next Parliament either. 

Will be an interesting sell to the faithful, as the dawning realisation hits them that they aren't going to get another referendum in a very long time.

 

On 07/01/2017 at 01:54, ScotSquid said:

The ball isn't in Westminster's court at all. Whatever happens in the Brexit negotiations, there won't be an indyref. 

I said that months ago. Others on this thread and others said , after the Leave vote, that there would definitely be a second indyref in this Parliament. 

I explained why they were wrong. And why the Leave vote was an utter disaster for Scottish independence.

Indyref isn't still on the table because it was never on the table to begin with. It's gone for many years. 

I'm very much enjoying the rewriting of history though. And the presence that the Nationalist movement isn't seeking a new referendum. No siree. Perish the thought. 

Must have imagined all of the National's 'Lets get the gang together again' tubthumping, and the Summer of Independence was it? 

The facts are that the post-Leave climate is brutal for separation. The polls show no good signs for it. The GERS figures were horrific. And the UK is by a huge amount Scotland's critical export market.

Sturgeon now has to pray that Brexit is Featherlight. The more difficult it is, the worse things get for her. 

She's in an utter c**t of a position here. 

 

On 18/01/2017 at 23:16, ScotSquid said:

The Yes movement are in a really bad spot here. This should have dawned on people the second there was a Leave vote - it was horrendous for Independence. Unless it was the softest of Brexits, which is why Nicola Sturgeon has been agitating for that.

iScotland would be facing on day one a substantial budget hole to fill. If everything was as it is today. That's going to require increased taxation from somewhere and/or cuts in spending, of a significant amount. Scotland would be poorer at the start.

Now there's the real problem. It's largest trading partner is going to be out of the single market (assuming here that Scotland is successful in its EU application - a reasonable assumption). 

There's been some idiotic nonsense talked about that . 'Uhhh, so yer saying that the UK won't trade with Scotland'. Err no. Trade will continue as it did before but it won't be tariff free . It will be more expensive for Scottish firms to trade with the UK. This will add costs, and reduce income. Which reduces tax take. This also pishes on the chips of the SNPs wheeze to slash Corporation Tax. The UK are wise to that game and are fully intending to do that too.

Of all the EU members in a future world most disadvantaged by the EU and the UK not negotiating a friendly mutually beneficial deal, it's iScotland.

As I said before, the SNP should be Theresa May's biggest cheerleader in any Brexit negotiations with the EU. Which they will be in private. Of course the flip side if that is that the bigger a success the UK makes of this whole fiasco the less appetising Independence looks. 

So what do you wish for? The SNP won't call a referendum. The financial position is far too uncertain, and as you say the 'pound in my pocket' types who won the 2014 indyref will not sign up for massive uncertainty and likely austerity as a fledging new nation, in the EU, but with the UK out. 

The psychological conditions for Indy have undoubtedly improved. Leaving the EU and the direction Britain is going in will worry a lot of moderate No voters. But the economic position is much much worse than in 2014. Oil has tanked. The deficit has grown. There's no appetite for increased personal taxation. And there's little prospect for massively increased corporate taxation. 

Until Scots steel themselves for a high taxation high public spend economy and buy into that model, there will be no Yes vote. 

 

 

On 30/01/2017 at 08:04, ScotSquid said:

Want a second Independence referendum within two years? 

Yes 27%

No 51%

That's one of the main reasons why there isn't going to be one.

 

[doulikefish]

Guess we will see if it is indeed "the most powerful devolved "parliament in the world

[Deanburn Dave]

Right that's the vote done.   Can Nicola and the rest of her glorified councillors get on with running the country, sorting education, the NHS, the police and the numerous other things that should be prioritised ahead of  posturing and promoting a referendum that most people in Scotland do not want.   

[Shades75]

3 minutes ago, Deanburn Dave said:

Right that's the vote done.   Can Nicola and the rest of her glorified councillors get on with running the country, sorting education, the NHS, the police and the numerous other things that should be prioritised ahead of  posturing and promoting a referendum that most people in Scotland do not want.   

"Get on with the day job".

"Scotland doesn't want a referendum"

Unionist bingo is really taking off.  Can't you summon an original thought?

[oneteaminglasgow]

3 minutes ago, Deanburn Dave said:

Right that's the vote done.   Can Nicola and the rest of her glorified councillors get on with running the country, sorting education, the NHS, the police and the numerous other things that should be prioritised ahead of  posturing and promoting a referendum that most people in Scotland do not want.   

There's an argument to be made that independence from the UK could be seen as more important than those issues in the short term, as it is the best way to allow us to create a better, fairer Scotland long term.

[Deanburn Dave]

There is an argument to be made but I've heard it and am not convinced.    Like many others I don't think independence is a panacea for the situation Scotland is in.    

 

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Deanburn Dave said:

There is an argument to be made but I've heard it and am not convinced.    Like many others I don't think independence is a panacea for the situation Scotland is in.    

 

So you think Scotland, after three hundred years as a relatively small region of the UK, is in a situation so grave it requires a cure-all?

[Antlion]

31 minutes ago, Deanburn Dave said:

Right that's the vote done.   Can Nicola and the rest of her glorified councillors get on with running the country, sorting education, the NHS, the police and the numerous other things that should be prioritised ahead of  posturing and promoting a referendum that most people in Scotland do not want.   

Back in the box; know your place; stop trying to be a nation state and get on with running Scotland as it should be run - a dependent, glorified parish.

Totally proud and patriotic Scot, though, I'm sure. A regular Thomas Jefferson.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Antlion

[Shades75]

5 minutes ago, Deanburn Dave said:

There is an argument to be made but I've heard it and am not convinced.    Like many others I don't think independence is a panacea for the situation Scotland is in.    

 

It's fortunate that independence isn't presented as such and that people don't believe it to be.

[oneteaminglasgow]

Well aye, obviously independence isn't going to suddenly solve all of Scotland's problems by itself. It is merely the first step in allowing us, as a nation, to address them.