sparky88 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 10 minutes ago, KirkieRR said: On the whole we should welcome the ruling. We now know for certain that whatever we vote for, we probably won't get. It's neither fair nor just but there is no way, legally or democratically, we can change this as a nation. If you're OK with this, you really can't complain about Johnson or Tories or Brexit or austerity. It doesn't matter whether or not most people in Scotland vote for these things. You agree that it's our patriotic duty as British subjects to take what we get rammed firmly up our fundament until our eyes water. Voluntary union of equals? Aye, right. Or alternatively, the SNP shouldn't put stuff the Scottish Parliament doesnt't have jurisdiction over in their manifesto. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) Probably been mentioned but if we call the Westminster election as a referendum we'll lose the 16-17 year old voters this time around. Probably won't make much difference though, bring it on! Edited November 23, 2022 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 58 minutes ago, Jedi said: Last 5 I can see, IPSOS Moray, Panelbase, Panelbase, Savana, YouGov are 50, 46,47,43,45. IPSOS Moray was a 2000 sample and 50% based on the question 'Should Should be an Independent country'/ The 'average' figure for the last 12 months is 43/44% (that includes summer this year when Yes was at 38/39%-sample 1000) On 17/11/2022 at 20:48, lichtgilphead said: Strangely, I don't remember the MSM press picking up on this recent Ipsos poll... All tables available here: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2022-11/public-attitudes-across-the-union-ipsos-knowledgepanel-uk-tables.pdf Fieldwork dates: 13th October - 19th October 2022 Respondent type: KnowledgePanel Members - UK, 16+ Scottish voters only I would prefer Scotland to vote against leaving the UK and becoming an independent country - 43% Don't mind either way - 4% I would prefer Scotland to vote for leaving the UK and becoming an independent country 50% Don't know - 2% With undecideds and those who aren't bothered stripped out, that works out as 54% in favour of independence and 46% opposed I see that Jedi is totally misrepresenting the latest Ipsos poll. He's got the question wrong and is reporting the result as if the "don't knows" and the "don't minds" would vote against leaving. When the undecided are stripped out, Indy is 8 percentage points ahead. A typical Labour ploy - who remembers 1979 when the dead were counted as voting "no"? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 I have my doubts that a defacto referendum in a Westminster election will work tbh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Talking about polls, I also note that Jedi hasn't reported tonights Channel 4 poll https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2022/11/bombshell-channel-4-poll-suggests-court.html Would you vote SNP at the next general election if a victory for them could lead to Scotland leaving the UK? (Find Out Now / Channel 4 News, 23rd November 2022) Yes 50% No 33% Excluding Don't Knows and 'Prefer Not To Says', that works out as approximately Yes 60%, No 40%. Would you vote SNP at the next general election if your vote would be used as a mandate to negotiate independence with the UK Government? Yes 51% No 33% That works out as roughly Yes 61%, No 39% without Don't Knows and Won't Says. These are obviously extraordinarily good numbers, which at the very least seem to point to some kind of outright majority for independence in the wake of the Supreme Court ruling. It's particularly striking that respondents were not put off by the pejorative wording about "leaving the UK", which normally dramatically reduces support. However, these numbers also raise question marks about how polling can be accurately conducted for a plebiscite election, because it's obviously pretty unlikely that a more conventional voting intention poll would show the SNP as high as 60% or 61%. It looks like the hypothetical nature of the question, and the failure to name other parties as alternatives, may have produced a distorted outcome - but there'd be a different sort of problem if you just asked a conventional voting intention question, because that might underestimate the SNP vote due to respondents not taking into account the plebiscite element. It's really not straightforward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiGi Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Jedi said: The Tories undoubtedly will rescind workers rights, will quite probably try to sell off the NHS to US venture capitalists, inflation will remain high for some time, which leads to a stagnation in wages etc...all true. Whatever the Tories do about health however would pertain to England and Wales and not apply in Scotland. In Scotland, with health, education, transport, taxation devolved, and all the public sector workers named above striking over pay and conditions, not UK wide, but IN Scotland, under a government with fully devolved powers in these areas, again, does the SNP have 'any' responsibility to address these issues here, in the meantime, or is the stock answer that it is 'only' under Independence that we could make decisions on health, education, transport and taxation, which would allow us to pay public sector workers a fair wage more in line with a Cost of Living crisis. I mean it's a reasonable question in that devolved sectors are the responsibility of the Scottish government, but without power to adequately borrow out of these many pay crises like most western governments I think it's fairly obvious. The UK borrows hundreds of billions and hands it to the companies suppressing wages. In Scotland there is fairly limited power and scope to fully combat that while providing the social uplifts we have compared to south of the border. AFAIK the borrowing budget is restricted to book-balancing and not economic growth. Not a like for like comparison for me. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stringer Bell said: I have my doubts that a defacto referendum in a Westminster election will work tbh. It's a big ask to get 50% plus one, but if it happens, alongside no overall majority in Westminster, and SNP MPs just refuse to vote on anything without a guarantee of a binding referendum from whichever party can deliver it, it's a feasible strategy. Edited November 24, 2022 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Pro-Union parties will attempt to delegitimise the strategy by talking about issues that aren't independence. This might be slightly inconvenient for the single issue vote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAD Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 19 minutes ago, sparky88 said: Pro-Union parties will attempt to delegitimise the strategy by talking about issues that aren't independence. This might be slightly inconvenient for the single issue vote. Yeah, but nobody will be interested in talking about these things, just like in the past few elections when both Labour and Tories only wanted to talk about independence. Instead they will both have to repeatedly defend the line that Scotland doesn't deserve democracy and that 40% is a mandate for them, but not for the SNP. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 8 hours ago, Jedi said: Last 5 I can see, IPSOS Moray, Panelbase, Panelbase, Savana, YouGov are 50, 46,47,43,45. IPSOS Moray was a 2000 sample and 50% based on the question 'Should Should be an Independent country'/ The 'average' figure for the last 12 months is 43/44% (that includes summer this year when Yes was at 38/39%-sample 1000) That's with DKs included (where support for the Union is below 50%). Dks excluded is as I said. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 48 minutes ago, sparky88 said: Pro-Union parties will attempt to delegitimise the strategy by talking about issues that aren't independence. This might be slightly inconvenient for the single issue vote. Controlling the narrative is going to be important, certainly. If the SNP go in with a manifesto that is one page long and simply says "Should Scotand be an independent country: vote SNP" then it will be pretty hard to paint a vote for the SNP in terms of their policies on Tax I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 I see that Jedi is totally misrepresenting the latest Ipsos poll. He's got the question wrong and is reporting the result as if the "don't knows" and the "don't minds" would vote against leaving. When the undecided are stripped out, Indy is 8 percentage points ahead. A typical Labour ploy - who remembers 1979 when the dead were counted as voting "no"? He's just a cut and paste SLab troll.Best ignored. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Jean King Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Anyone else log in here this morning stunned and disappointed in equal measure to see Kincy hadn't signed in under his Kenneth persona screaming for UDI ??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Controlling the narrative is going to be important, certainly. If the SNP go in with a manifesto that is one page long and simply says "Should Scotand be an independent country: vote SNP" then it will be pretty hard to paint a vote for the SNP in terms of their policies on Tax I think.And which election.I'm minded that it shouldn't be a UK election but a Scottish Parliament election - that would mean the FM resigning and no replacement being made within 28 days - under the terms of the Scotland Act, if the Parliament fails to nominate a first minister, within this time frame, it will be dissolved and a fresh election held. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Jean King Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 And which election.I'm minded that it shouldn't be a UK election but a Scottish Parliament election - that would mean the FM resigning and no replacement being made within 28 days - under the terms of the Scotland Act, if the Parliament fails to nominate a first minister, within this time frame, it will be dissolved and a fresh election held.The whole de-facto referendum thing is in my mind not going to change anything but if the SNP are determined to go down that route then it 100% should be as part of a Scottish parliament election and not a general election. It smacks a bit of shitebaggery by NS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 9 hours ago, Jedi said: The Tories undoubtedly will rescind workers rights, will quite probably try to sell off the NHS to US venture capitalists, inflation will remain high for some time, which leads to a stagnation in wages etc...all true. Whatever the Tories do about health however would pertain to England and Wales and not apply in Scotland. In Scotland, with health, education, transport, taxation devolved, and all the public sector workers named above striking over pay and conditions, not UK wide, but IN Scotland, under a government with fully devolved powers in these areas, again, does the SNP have 'any' responsibility to address these issues here, in the meantime, or is the stock answer that it is 'only' under Independence that we could make decisions on health, education, transport and taxation, which would allow us to pay public sector workers a fair wage more in line with a Cost of Living crisis. In terms of the NHS although i dont think the SNP are doing a good job, do you honestly think that if the English nhs was to be privatised that we’d still receive the same funding as we do now? It would be cut to be the equivalent of English public spending. You know this. Your posturing on this is disingenuous to say the least, were you one of the labour activists chapping peoples doors telling them they’d have to vote no or they’d be deported or their pensions would stop? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergie's no1 fan Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Weird seeing Unionists celebrating the face they have been denied the right to vote in favour of the Union in a fair and legal referendum. Now they don't have a leg to stand on if Nicola finds a different loophole for independence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, sergie's no1 fan said: Weird seeing Unionists celebrating the face they have been denied the right to vote in favour of the Union in a fair and legal referendum. Now they don't have a leg to stand on if Nicola finds a different loophole for independence. I suspect UK Nats just see any denial of Scottish democratic rights a win for the UK. It’s a “them and us” attitude which only highlights the divisive nature of UK Nationalism: it endures by dividing (and ruling) the Scots into staunch UK loyalists and wicked jock separatists. The former will welcome anything - even things that damage their own rights - as long as it’s framed as being a win against the latter. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Steele Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 16 minutes ago, sergie's no1 fan said: Weird seeing Unionists celebrating the face they have been denied the right to vote in favour of the Union in a fair and legal referendum. Now they don't have a leg to stand on if Nicola finds a different loophole for independence. Imagine being so worried about losing that they willingly cheer on the denial of democracy and in the process cheerlead the UK as the Tories take it even further to the right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAD Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 1 hour ago, GAD said: Yeah, but nobody will be interested in talking about these things, just like in the past few elections when both Labour and Tories only wanted to talk about independence. Instead they will both have to repeatedly defend the line that Scotland doesn't deserve democracy and that 40% is a mandate for them, but not for the SNP. Didn't need to wait long as Douglas Ross has an absolute car crash on radio Scotland this morning flapping hard trying to defend these positions whilst also trying not to talk about them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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