When will indyref2 happen?

[SandyCromarty]

1 hour ago, Antlion said:

Gordon Brown. I thought he was dead.

Only brain dead.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

13 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

We had democracy in 2014.  I know you know this.

Thing is, we're now almost 7 years after that with 2021 a month or so away (christ...). If "we've already decided on this democratically in 2014!!!" is the defence then it gets weaker and weaker with every passing year. Combine that with the SNP smashing every election going since then and it becomes untenable tbh.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

3 hours ago, Antlion said:

Gordon Brown. I thought he was dead.

i still havent forgotten this

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

[Antlion]

41 minutes ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

i still havent forgotten this

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

I haven’t forgot when the twisted fat f**k claimed that terminally ill children would be denied healthcare if we voted “Yes” (only for Great Ormond Street and others to come out and deny his disgusting lies). A truly evil, amoral burst rectum of a human. He should settle into his pill-induced haze, merrily chewing his jaw offscreen.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

You hear it from Unionist all the time unless you have your head firmly stuck in the sand.  The Scottish Parliament is not legally competent to hold a constitutional referendum which is why the Edinburgh Agreement exists.  It also wasn't a throw-away comment, it was a position adopted by the SNP to, as you say, get across to people the importance and rarity of the opportunity.  What we can't do now is throw our hands up in the air and say it doesn't matter.  It clearly does as this together with "now is not the time" is the battlecry from Unionists and whilst others on here may be in favour of proceeding without an Agreement with Westminster there is no way that this would be accepted by the International Community.

Are you forgetting about the Referendum (Scotland) Bill? That's still to be tested in the courts.

 

I'm not a legal expert but from what I've read there is strong case for it being upheld - due to the legal definition of sovereignty being different in Scotland compared to England.

 

[strichener]

47 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Are you forgetting about the Referendum (Scotland) Bill? That's still to be tested in the courts.

 

I'm not a legal expert but from what I've read there is strong case for it being upheld - due to the legal definition of sovereignty being different in Scotland compared to England.

 

I'm not forgetting about it.  I am just sceptical of the chance of it both being upheld and of it making any impact on the UK.  If we assume the best case scenario is that it is upheld and we have a referendum on the back of it, if the unionists don't take part and Westminster refuses to recognise the result we are left without a place on the world stage.  The UK could and probably would refuse to recognise UDI and this would make it extremely difficult to achieve international recognition.

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by strichener

[SandyCromarty]

47 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Are you forgetting about the Referendum (Scotland) Bill? That's still to be tested in the courts.

 

I'm not a legal expert but from what I've read there is strong case for it being upheld - due to the legal definition of sovereignty being different in Scotland compared to England.

 

Scottish Sovereignty is clearly defined in The 1989 Claim of Right.

And Gordon Brown was one of the signatories.

In 2018 The House of Commons officially endorsed the principles of The Claim of Right. 

[Granny Danger]

5 hours ago, Antlion said:

Gordon Brown. I thought he was dead.

Gordon Brown was a truly awful Chancellor and an even worse PM.  He does not deserve the coverage he gets from the MSM and takes himself far too seriously.

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

Scottish Sovereignty is clearly defined in The 1989 Claim of Right.

And Gordon Brown was one of the signatories.

In 2018 The House of Commons officially endorsed the principles of The Claim of Right. 

Seems a bit flimsy according to Wiki, which may well be wrong.

Quote

The Claim of Right has never had or claimed any legal force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_Right_1989

Some background which isn't much clearer. The SNP refused to sign it.

https://constitution-unit.com/2020/02/19/the-history-behind-nicola-sturgeons-call-for-a-claim-of-right-for-scotland/

And the text.

Quote

We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.

We further declare and pledge that our actions and deliberations shall be directed to the following ends:

To agree a scheme for an Assembly or Parliament for Scotland;

To mobilise Scottish opinion and ensure the approval of the Scottish people for that scheme; and

To assert the right of the Scottish people to secure implementation of that scheme.

 

[Gordon EF]

35 minutes ago, strichener said:

I'm not forgetting about it.  I am just sceptical of the chance of it both being upheld and of it making any impact on the UK.  If we assume the best case scenario is that it is upheld and we have a referendum on the back of it, if the unionists don't take part and Westminster refuses to recognise the result we are left without a place on the world stage.  The UK could and probably would refuse to recognise UDI and this would make it extremely difficult to achieve international recognition.

 

There's no doubt that would be a difficult situation and one that we'd want to avoid. But you're painting an overly pessimistic picture here.

'International recognition" is not a binary state. Kosovo essentially declared UDI from Serbia and were immediately 'recognised' by many states (including the UK and the US). It's extremely unlikely that the situation between iScoltland and rUK would be as rancorous and long-lasting as that situation, given the recent history of the Balkans.

There would also be a far higher priority and value placed on a resolution to the situation amongst the international, and particularly, European community.

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

I'm not forgetting about it.  I am just sceptical of the chance of it both being upheld and of it making any impact on the UK.  If we assume the best case scenario is that it is upheld and we have a referendum on the back of it, if the unionists don't take part and Westminster refuses to recognise the result we are left without a place on the world stage.  The UK could and probably would refuse to recognise UDI and this would make it extremely difficult to achieve international recognition.

 

I'm sure someone will dust off the Colin Kidd scholarship and impress everyone at the UN with our ancient claim to sovereignty or something

[sophia]

6 hours ago, strichener said:

The Scottish Parliament is not legally competent to hold a constitutional referendum which is why the Edinburgh Agreement exists. 

 

2 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Are you forgetting about the Referendum (Scotland) Bill? That's still to be tested in the courts.

 

 

1 hour ago, strichener said:

I'm not forgetting about it. 

Would you say you were disingenuous or perhaps you simply overlooked what is common knowledge?

 

[welshbairn]

Maybe @Ad Lib could comment on the thoroughness and neutrality of this opinion commissioned before the 2014 referendum?

Quote

Three departments of the UK Government – the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the
Cabinet Office and the Office of the Advocate General for Scotland – have jointly instructed
us to advise in connection with the proposed referendum. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/79408/Annex_A.pdf

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

2 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

There's no doubt that would be a difficult situation and one that we'd want to avoid. But you're painting an overly pessimistic picture here.

'International recognition" is not a binary state. Kosovo essentially declared UDI from Serbia and were immediately 'recognised' by many states (including the UK and the US). It's extremely unlikely that the situation between iScoltland and rUK would be as rancorous and long-lasting as that situation, given the recent history of the Balkans.

There would also be a far higher priority and value placed on a resolution to the situation amongst the international, and particularly, European community.

Whereas I would love to believe that you're right, don't forget that the international and European community took no interest in Catalonia's attempt at UDI and in fact stood by as the Spanish government sent in troops and then jailed the whole Catalonian government in hastily convened show trials. 

I wouldn't bet much money on the Scottish government getting much international support if they decided to go down a route which wasn't legally watertight. 

[Gordon EF]

7 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Whereas I would love to believe that you're right, don't forget that the international and European community took no interest in Catalonia's attempt at UDI and in fact stood by as the Spanish government sent in troops and then jailed the whole Catalonian government in hastily convened show trials. 

I wouldn't bet much money on the Scottish government getting much international support if they decided to go down a route which wasn't legally watertight. 

Yep. Wasn't saying it wouldn't be messy at all.

[Mr Heliums]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Gordon Brown was a truly awful Chancellor and an even worse PM.  He does not deserve the coverage he gets from the MSM and takes himself far too seriously.

If the MSM asked him a couple of decent questions he'd scuttle away quickly enough.

[Antlion]

Serial nobody Neil Findlay now getting in on the “we promise, you won’t have to vote for independence or the status quo, but federalism! (Just don’t ask whether the rest of the UK will let you have it...)”.

[SandyCromarty]

1 hour ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Whereas I would love to believe that you're right, don't forget that the international and European community took no interest in Catalonia's attempt at UDI and in fact stood by as the Spanish government sent in troops and then jailed the whole Catalonian government in hastily convened show trials. 

I wouldn't bet much money on the Scottish government getting much international support if they decided to go down a route which wasn't legally watertight. 

I wonder if that had been the case if Spain had been in the throes of a SPEXIT, would the EU have still turned a blind eye to Catalonia if Spain had been negotiating leaving the EU.?

[John Lambies Doos]

Gordon Brown. I thought he was dead.

Who?

[Antlion]

40 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

12 hours ago, Antlion said:

Gordon Brown. I thought he was dead.

Who?