The Terrible Journalism & Tom English Thread

[RandomGuy.]

I think the debate is being mixed up.

@2426255 is talking about top level continental players i think, who generally do have a great understanding of the game/tactics (particularly baller CMs), while others are talking about British thicko ex-pros like Rio Ferdinand and Kris Boyd, who think a 2-3-5 formation is awful because it leaves opponents wingers in rakes of space.

I think the ex-elite player is top of whose opinions you want, while thick ex-player is near the bottom, and in the middle you get the varying degree of those who havent played.

I love reading Vickerys stuff but i do sometimes wonder if he benefits from speaking about football from a place i dont have a clue about sometimes. Balague is a mumbleclown IMO.

[Dons_1988]

6 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I think the debate is being mixed up.

@2426255 is talking about top level continental players i think, who generally do have a great understanding of the game/tactics (particularly baller CMs), while others are talking about British thicko ex-pros like Rio Ferdinand and Kris Boyd, who think a 2-3-5 formation is awful because it leaves opponents wingers in rakes of space.

I think the ex-elite player is top of whose opinions you want, while thick ex-player is near the bottom, and in the middle you get the varying degree of those who havent played.

I love reading Vickerys stuff but i do sometimes wonder if he benefits from speaking about football from a place i dont have a clue about sometimes. Balague is a mumbleclown IMO.

If that’s what he meant then it wasn’t clear. He maybe needs to get some tips from journalists on his writing. 

[GHF-23]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

It’s fairly contradictory to say you don’t want a debate over players vs journalists but then make blanket statements about journalists not knowing what they’re talking about and players do. 

I would agree that many, many football journalists are skilled in generating media interest and sometimes even writing but are essentially mildly articulate football fans. But here’s the thing…some aren’t. Some do study the game very closely and will likely gain knowledge from speaking to those within the game whose opinion is apparently so sought after. 

Conversely, I would also agree that players are uniquely placed to give their insight into the game but unfortunately many of them squander it by being either too thick, too lazy or simply too arrogant to think punditry requires any sort of research. 

 

59 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I think the debate is being mixed up.

@2426255 is talking about top level continental players i think, who generally do have a great understanding of the game/tactics (particularly baller CMs), while others are talking about British thicko ex-pros like Rio Ferdinand and Kris Boyd, who think a 2-3-5 formation is awful because it leaves opponents wingers in rakes of space.

I think the ex-elite player is top of whose opinions you want, while thick ex-player is near the bottom, and in the middle you get the varying degree of those who havent played.

I love reading Vickerys stuff but i do sometimes wonder if he benefits from speaking about football from a place i dont have a clue about sometimes. Balague is a mumbleclown IMO.

I think these two posts articulate my point a lot better than I was managing. It's, like autism or sexuality, a spectrum

[VincentGuerin]

I know a boy who works the beat for one of the Midlands clubs as a local journalists and he sticks to news, interviews etc.

One thing I'd never considered before until he pointed it out is that fitba journalists get access to coaches and listen to the things they say. So, you'll get a reporter who has heard one coach repeatedly say one particular thing about tactics, and in deference the journalist typically takes that to be CORRECT, forgetting that that coach might just be wrong or that there might be a better way. Then that becomes that journalist's go-to type of analysis.

He used man v zonal marking as the example. Basically listed coaches he knew who did it different ways and then went through the views of loads of journalists who worked with those coaches. Suppose that's the kind of thing you notice when you sit in on hundreds of press conerences and speak to the same people again and again.

Most people writing about football know no more about it than any of us. They just get a platform and people read it because it's something to do. If you look at most football analysis etc, it tends to consist of reporters telling you what happened last week and using that as a reason that they think the same thing will happen again next week.

[tamthebam]

1 hour ago, GHF-23 said:

Another one from yesterday's updates. The city of Liverpool has been lifted from Merseyside and dumped in West Lothian.

On the debate of the last few days I'd kinda agree with @2426255, I don't really want to hear journalists' opinions on tactics etc. Relying on managers or former players obviously has lots of issues too - how much currently working ones want to give away, ability to articulate towards the general public, funnily enough quality of journalism itself to ask about these things.

And I would separate journalists, which me thinks of guys talking about transfers on Sunday Supplement, from guys who are performing analysis, as the Cox's or JJ Bull's (incredibly annoying manner aside) definitely have something to contribute in providing information and educating people on how the game they're watching works, which can only be a good thing if the quality is good. 

All that being said nothing will ever compare to the Sean Dyche masterclass video of 4-4-fucking-2

It's not the first time a club has been stolen and dumped in West Lothian.

Ironic that it's the Scousers who've been stolen though!

[houston_bud]

I was listening to Radio Scotland's news bulletin earlier and it annoyed me more than it should've. Opening line was "Rangers' season started in defeat" what a dreadful way to frame that. Why not "Kilmarnock's season started in victory" ?

Maybe I shouldn't, but I expect better from the BBC as it's a public service broadcaster.

[Dons_1988]

7 minutes ago, houston_bud said:

I was listening to Radio Scotland's news bulletin earlier and it annoyed me more than it should've. Opening line was "Rangers' season started in defeat" what a dreadful way to frame that. Why not "Kilmarnock's season started in victory" ?

Maybe I shouldn't, but I expect better from the BBC as it's a public service broadcaster.

That ship has sailed with the bbc, unfortunately. They might not be as flagrant as others but they are craving clicks and hits like everyone else. 

[2426255]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

It’s fairly contradictory to say you don’t want a debate over players vs journalists but then make blanket statements about journalists not knowing what they’re talking about and players do. 

I never brought players/ex players into the conversation - that was @Jacky1990.  

To clarify once again, It's more the manager that I'm interested in hearing from, sometimes the player/ex player to get their perspective being a cog in the system and almost never a journalist unless they have qualifications or experience outside of covering it for the media.

I don't see why it's such a big deal, to me it seems to be needlessly bogging down this conversation and it's my hope that this clarification will allow the topic to move on.  

 

On 03/08/2023 at 10:39, 2426255 said:

Yes, dumb footballers - but great first hand accounts, so I'd rather watch them than JJ Bull. 

 

On 03/08/2023 at 08:54, 2426255 said:

For the most part I prefer to cut out the middle man (journalist) and go straight to source (manager) when trying to get an idea of on the pitch stuff.

[2426255]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I think the debate is being mixed up.

@2426255 is talking about top level continental players i think, who generally do have a great understanding of the game/tactics (particularly baller CMs), while others are talking about British thicko ex-pros like Rio Ferdinand and Kris Boyd, who think a 2-3-5 formation is awful because it leaves opponents wingers in rakes of space.

I think the ex-elite player is top of whose opinions you want, while thick ex-player is near the bottom, and in the middle you get the varying degree of those who havent played.

I love reading Vickerys stuff but i do sometimes wonder if he benefits from speaking about football from a place i dont have a clue about sometimes. Balague is a mumbleclown IMO.

I don't think you can compare the top end journalists (Jonathan Wilson,Tim Vickery) versus (Kenny Miller, Cammy Bell). If I were to do the inverse and compare Cesc Fabregas or Jose Mourinho to Keith Jackson or Thomas Duncan it would be equally unfair.

Furthermore, you can learn one or two things just in terms of listening to players after the game about their individual roles as a cog in the system within the game so what players say can be valuable. A small but excellent example of that was Lyndon Dykes (not a player associated with a great understanding of the game) talking about his role in the Scotland v Spain game.

Quote

We had that mid-block, personally my role was to block off Rodri in the middle and make sure he doesn't control the game.

Lyndon Dykes

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/lyndon-dykes-reveals-rodri-special-29583785

Edited August 6, 2023 by 2426255

[VincentGuerin]

15 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I don't think you can compare the top end journalists (Jonathan Wilson,Tim Vickery) versus (Kenny Miller, Cammy Bell). If I were to do the inverse and compare Cesc Fabregas or Jose Mourinho to Keith Jackson or Thomas Duncan it would be equally unfair.

 

I think there's a difference in what they do as well.

Jonathon Wilson is very good, but has also literally travelled the world researching the history of football tactics and developing an understanding of why the game is the way it is. I don't think he generally presents himself as an expert on what a team should do etc, more on why the game itself has developed as it has. Not quite the same thing. He tends to only really get his teeth into things he considers obvious, like the impact Ronaldo would have on Man Utd's structure as a team, for example.

Vickery has been in Brazil a long time and analysis of the game there in general is much more tactical than it is here, so I think he's just developed that through exposure. A lot of his stuff is being good at identifying why a certain player will or won't fit a certain club's system, for example. That's a much more common feature in other countries than it is here. We get a lot more "He did well there, so he'll do well at his next club" here with little more than that.

Very, very few journalists that work in the UK media have that level of exposure to tactics, or, I think, the intelligence to understand how much they don't understand. You get very confident statements about tactics given by people who are used to simply having a platform and being listened to.

And when it comes to ex-players and those with coaching badges etc, you need to factor in that some people are just smarter and better at things than others. All teachers working in Scotland will have done the same training, for example, but some will be miles better at applying what they studied than others. There'll be plenty of qualified teachers with years of classroom experience who are fucking awful at their jobs. Same with fitba. Loads of qualified, experienced coaches will simply be rubbish at applying that knowledge and experience.

Edited August 6, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[2426255]

8 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Very, very few journalists that work in the UK media have that level of exposure to tactics, or, I think, the intelligence to understand how much they don't understand. You get very confident statements about tactics given by people who are used to simply having a platform and being listened to.

So true and horrible to listen to. I also think they thrive on an absence of good information where there is a huge demand for information from fans and lack of supply from club/players/managers. They kind of fill that gap and we see a alot of shite talked - pre-season is terrible for it.

Edited August 6, 2023 by 2426255

[RawB93]

Lyall Cameron scored our only goal of the game.

[Rod1877]

1 hour ago, RawB93 said:

Lyall Cameron scored our only goal of the game.

Interesting pick of Mark O'Hara at right centre back. "Jonners" making a play for inclusion in the "journalists who know their stuff" category.

[Dirty Sanchez]

This was highlighted by @Drooper elsewhere, and merits adding here too.

Snatching a draw in a game with five goals in it, compounded by the highlights ending while it's still 2-2.

This was in addition to their live text initially saying that Eamonn Brophy (a Ross County player) was fouled for the penalty.

[Aim Here]

London-born Harry McKirdy seems to have emigrated to Scotland, according to the BBC. I suspect he's in as little danger of getting called up by Steve Clarke as he is by Gareth Southgate.

[forkboy]

42 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

London-born Harry McKirdy seems to have emigrated to Scotland, according to the BBC. I suspect he's in as little danger of getting called up by Steve Clarke as he is by Gareth Southgate.

London has been annexed by the SNP. Did you miss that?

[Crawford Bridge]

I must've been off my nut last night. Pretty sure Hibs scored a third? 

[Salvo Montalbano]

Has the BBC got a new policy of missing one goal oer Hibs game these days? 

[Boghead ranter]

4 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

Has the BBC got a new policy of missing one goal oer Hibs game these days? 

BBC'd it.

[Mark Connolly]

This is probably the wrong thread for this moan, but Harry Kane signing for Bayern is the lead sports story on Radio Scotland