Scotrail

[IrishBhoy]

9 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Cetainly not working class, if you think 500 is working class (13 quid an hour after deductions) what would you call the nhs staff that are on 12 quid an hour before tax? 

Working class as well. Its an extremely broad spectrum, and £24,000 net pay per annum isn’t even in the same stratosphere as middle class in the UK. It depends on your definition of middle class tbh but I would say upwards of £80k net per annum, along with numerous other factors such as assets owned, savings, investments etc. 

It’s a subjective issue as I know guys who grew up in housing schemes that now have 6 figure businesses and 2 or 3 properties, but I would still label them working class. I’ve always thought of middle class Britain to be one rung under the elite, wealthy enough that they don’t need to work to sustain their lifestyle, and working class the rest of the way down. 

[54_and_counting]

Just now, Left Back said:

Don't recall anyone doing that.  May well have done but if so I've missed it.  What people were moaning about was the union demands when these people are already paid substantially more than others in the public sector who would be more in need of a decent pay-rise but won't be getting one.

I wasnt even moaning about that, i just think its arguable that working class is now at a point where its 500 a week in your hand for full time hours, 

As VT i think said earlier, imagine mr and miss conductor got together, a grand a week net wage for one household, thats not working class imo

[54_and_counting]

3 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

Working class as well. Its an extremely broad spectrum, and £24,000 net pay per annum isn’t even in the same stratosphere as middle class in the UK. It depends on your definition of middle class tbh but I would say upwards of £80k net per annum, along with numerous other factors such as assets owned, savings, investments etc. 

It’s a subjective issue as I know guys who grew up in housing schemes that now have 6 figure businesses and 2 or 3 properties, but I would still label them working class. I’ve always thought of middle class Britain to be one rung under the elite, wealthy enough that they don’t need to work to sustain their lifestyle, and working class the rest of the way down. 

Aye that's fair enough, everyones opinion will be different, to me, a single person who could literally pay their monthly bills in a little over a fortnight's wages (if they arent idiots with their money etc) isnt working class, ans if two of them take home that wage its a hell of a lot easier

[19QOS19]

You need a V-Neck top and a Volvo to be regarded as Middle Class, I'm told.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, 19QOS19 said:

You need a V-Neck top and a Volvo to be regarded as Middle Class, I'm told.

Carrying the Daily Mail around with you helps.

[Cosmic Joe]

Play golf at weekends

 

[Marshmallo]

11 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

Working class as well. Its an extremely broad spectrum, and £24,000 net pay per annum isn’t even in the same stratosphere as middle class in the UK. It depends on your definition of middle class tbh but I would say upwards of £80k net per annum, along with numerous other factors such as assets owned, savings, investments etc. 

It’s a subjective issue as I know guys who grew up in housing schemes that now have 6 figure businesses and 2 or 3 properties, but I would still label them working class. I’ve always thought of middle class Britain to be one rung under the elite, wealthy enough that they don’t need to work to sustain their lifestyle, and working class the rest of the way down. 

80k net would be in the top 2% of incomes in Scotland 

[19QOS19]

Say 'yeah' exclusively instead of 'aye'.

[Jacksgranda]

3 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

You're right, we should just allow people to travel for free in case they are an arsehole.

 

I can travel for free. Not sure if the second part of the sentence applies, or not...

[Guest Flash]

1 hour ago, Todd_is_God said:

They already have that authority, though...

Penalty fares 
5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid 
travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare. 
(2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must 
provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is 
charged— 
(a) a statement that the person is being charged a penalty fare; 
(b) an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare; 
(c) the identification number of the collector; 
(d) the name of the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare is charged; 
(e) the penalty fare number; 
(f) the amount of the penalty fare; 
(g) a statement that the person has the right to appeal against the penalty fare and an 
explanation of how the person can appeal; 
(h) a statement that the person must either pay, or appeal against, the penalty fare within 21 
days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged; 
(i) an explanation of how the penalty fare may be paid; and 
(j) a statement that the person is entitled to a receipt if they pay the penalty fare. 
(3) Where a person who is charged a penalty fare under paragraph (1) pays the penalty fare

I don’t think they already have that authority. The above is an extract from The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 which don’t apply to Scotrail or Scotland only services. Extract below from Regulation 2 which sets out the scope of the Regulations
 

Application

2.—(1) These Regulations apply in relation to—

(a)a railway passenger service(2) within the scope of paragraph (2); and

(b)any station(3) at which a railway passenger service within the scope of paragraph (2) makes a scheduled call(4).

(2) A railway passenger service is within the scope of this paragraph unless it is—

(a)provided under a Scottish franchise agreement(5);

(b)a Scotland-only service(6);

(c)a service the provision of which is secured by the Scottish Ministers;

So, the SG would need to change the law in order to introduce penalty fares here. I agree that they should be introduced but I don’t think, currently, conductors on trains are legally allowed to issue penalty fares on Scotrail trains.

[Miguel Sanchez]

6 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

 

Oh, it’s not proportionate is it? Terribly sorry about that sir, lets reduce that fine for you and get it down to a figure that you’re willing to pay.

 

This is how Finland deals with speeding fines

In Finland, speeding tickets are linked to your income | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

[IrishBhoy]

14 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

80k net would be in the top 2% of incomes in Scotland 

Fair enough, probably can’t class that as working class. I do think there is many other factors that need to be taken into account over net salary. It’s a very subjective issue and probably not worth batting back and forth on here as everyone will view it slightly differently depending on their upbringing.
 

I remember a documentary John Prescott appeared on, in some northern English town. He had lunch with some teenagers that lived on a council estate and he was surprised to hear them say they labelled themselves as middle class, because they assumed the working class were the people with less money than them. 

[Jacksgranda]

51 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

500 after tax, NI and pensions is working class? a pension that is likely 300 a month minimum put into it, 

Cetainly not working class, if you think 500 is working class (13 quid an hour after deductions) what would you call the nhs staff that are on 12 quid an hour before tax? 

Working class lite.

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

Have we done "what defines your class" yet? I feel sure we have.... What were the conclusions?

Why would you want to continue perpetuating such arbitrary division anyway? 

In modern Scotland, 99% of people try to insist that they're working class - even when that's objectively not (or no longer the case). In the same way that some European nations lacked an aristocracy in the 19th/20th century, Scotland being a working class people is part of its modern national mythology.  

What's particularly interesting - hypocritical - about this issue is that very few fully subscribe to it. There has been a clearly documented aristocracy of labour in Scotland since the 19th century.  Good luck telling an engineer or welder at a Clyde shipyard back then that they were on the same level as an Irish docker - you'd have got your head kicked in. The demarcation disputes of the post-war era were driven in large part by the same distinctions between employees. And so-called 'skilled labour' continue to look down their noses at unskilled posts all the time. 

It's only when people start to scrutinise unequal wages and 'workers' earning 50% over the median wage (or train drivers on £50k a year FFS) that the workers of the world unite bullshit gets trotted out again. It's a middle class cover story before they secretly file their ballots for Ruth Davidson and the Union. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by vikingTON

[Bert Raccoon]

No wonder all those c***s on Inside Central Station have shit eating grins all the time. Few hours herding pissheads on a train to watch Scotland play Belarus before retiring to your mansion for some caviar and cuban cigars 

 

[Left Back]

3 minutes ago, Bert Raccoon said:

No wonder all those c***s on Inside Central Station have shit eating grins all the time. Few hours herding pissheads on a train to watch Scotland play Belarus before retiring to your mansion for some caviar and cuban cigars 

 

Would be a few minutes if the useless c***s actually ran some trains.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

9 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

Would conductors have the legal authority to issue monetary fines in Scotland though? I believe only the police are able to issue fines under Scottish law, that’s why all these fines that come from parking companies aren’t legally enforceable. 
 

As much as it definitely is a problem, it would be a nightmare to enforce. Can you imagine a conductor attempting to issue penalty notices to a group of drunken guys without tickets. It wouldn’t be worth the hassle that would inevitably follow, and wouldn’t be fair to put a conductor in that position either. 

Theres loads of jobs which can issue fixed penalties like the glasgow litter wardens, dog wardens, environmental enforcement at councils, taxi licensing, water bailiffs have a power of arrest, fishing regulators. Probably some more but thats just off the top of my head. 

6 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

More than once = repeat. That part isn't hard, and directly answers the question you asked.

As for implementation? Body cameras / CCTV etc can be used to identify people who give false details (in itself an offence).

I think people who dont have to rely on the interrogation of cctv/body cameras have unrealistic expectations as to the limitations and application of them. You rely on someone being able to identify that person, you cant just put it out publicly without the PF/Crown approving what you release too. The cost of this too would be crazy. Also there is no central database of people’s pictures to use to aid identification and even for me working in Criminal Justice theres no way id support such a disproportionate measure. 

6 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

I agree with all of the above. Personally, as a poster mentioned earlier, I feel we are a bit of a soft touch when it comes to accepting shite behaviour, and the complete reluctance to do anything meaningful to reduce the instances of attempted fare dodging is an extension of that.

We are a soft touch, there are 18 year olds with in excess of 50 previous convictions including knife carrying/robbery/serious assault etc who havent even seen the inside of a young offenders institute. The way the justice system in Scotland is set up there is absolutely no way they would have a disproportionate system to hammer what is essentially a fraud offence. 

3 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

Ok. Back to fantasy land then. So the conductor, who has absolutely no access to any sort of database in order to identify the passenger, and no authority to demand ID from them, pulls out his penalty notice pad and starts to write it out.
 

‘What’s your name mate your getting a fine for no paying for the train?’ 
 

‘Oh right am I? My name is Albert Square and I stay above the Queen Vic in Walford’ 

‘Ok good sir that all seems above board please pay your fine’. 

Do you know how much resource would be required to have someone sitting watching body cam footage trying to match the face up to a name that may not even be on the police national computer? Absolute needle in a haystack stuff. 
 

As I said earlier, in an ideal world all of your suggestions are fairly sensible. However, in the real world, where we currently live, they are completely unworkable. 

The only people I know who have the power to detain someone to confirm identity are police, immigration enforcement, NCA and customs and excise enforcement. All others including litter wardens rely on people being honest with their details, if you started issuing fines and people caught onto this everyone would be Homer Simpson 1642 Evergreen Terrace. Im not even sure its illegal to give someone the wrong details for a non criminal fine either, its not an attempt to pervert the course of justice because its not a criminal investigation, dunno its all a bit wooly. 

2 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

Can just imagine the admin staff in the procurator fiscals office after the fare dodging crack down starts. 
 

‘I didn’t know there was a Sesame Street in Maryhill, and the guys name is Robert C Nesbitt’. 

Theres currently a 2 year backlog in non solemn cases at Glasgow Sheriff Court, reporting train fare dodgers in the way described (BTP do do this sometimes but not at the level being suggested) would swamp the justice system, its simply not economically viable to do this. 

[Detournement]

2 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

On what planet is £500 a week not working class  
 

I don’t think you know what working class is tbh. Are you going to claim it’s middle class to give us all a laugh?

Plenty of people in Scotland think if you don't live in a scheme and have been in M&S Food in the previous 6 months then you are middle class. They would have a panic attack if they ever set foot in somewhere like Richmond.

There's zero point in going back to the 1970s (and definitely not the 1870s) because everything changed when Thatcher did the credit big bang in the 1980s and working class people got access to cheap money. 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Detournement

[DA Baracus]

31 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

This is the thing which is really odd. This forum is apparently a hotbed of socialism, equality and handwringing about the poorest in society but It's very odd to see people cheering when some of the highest paid public sector workers elbow their way to even more money at the expense of those at the bottom of the pile earnings-wise.

You're saying that people will get pay cuts if some working on the trains get a pay rise?

Oh, and what is the figure at which people are no longer allowed to ask for a pay rise? Is it £30k? £25k?

Edited June 17, 2022 by DA Baracus

[Cosmic Joe]

35 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I think you know you are middle class when you cheer on higher paid workers elbowing their way to an even bigger share of the pie, knowing that those in the public sector on the lowest wages will get less money as a direct result.

I would say, accepting a 5 percent pay rise, when inflation is currently approaching 10 percent is a more than reasonable compromise. 

Would you accept a 2 percent pay rise in the current economic climate?

You have been a pretty strong proponent of looking after number one in the past. So what would you do if you were a train driver?