General Politics Thread

[Thumper]

It won't happen for two reasons. Firstly the Labour Right have utter contempt for the Lib Dems, and especially for Farron. Secondly, there is no financial backer sitting in the wings to find such a venture.

 

Hahahahahaha. The Liberals have plenty of stealth backers, being a fundamentally elitist party, and the Blair PLP would ally with Donald Trump tomorrow if it gave them a shot at Parliament. You know this alreadyl, and support them regardless.

[Mr Bairn]

Fantastic speech in the commons by Patrick Grady, the honourable member from Glasgow North. Interesting point that he is a card carrying member of Plaid Cymru. Is that common among SNP politicians?

[DrewDon]

Financial backing would certainly act as one stumbling block, but (lack of) organisation would be another. It has been evident since the failed coups against Gordon Brown that the Blairites couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. Also, the mere fact that some younger Labour members - teenagers and those in their twenties - still openly identify primarily as 'Blairite', is testament to just how intellectually and creatively moribund that faction of the Party has become. 

Of course, you don't have to identify as Blairite to be on the Labour Right - most of Brown's closest supporters would be the latter but not the former. But the few MPs and other members of the Labour Right who can organise and know how to fight - like Tom Watson and Michael Dugher, for example - would never, ever support a splinter. That's if it were feasible, which it isn't anyway.  

[Mr Rational]

Fantastic speech in the commons by Patrick Grady, the honourable member from Glasgow North. Interesting point that he is a card carrying member of Plaid Cymru. Is that common among SNP politicians?

Don't know, but there's plenty of members that have 'both cards'. It's mainly symbolic or a show of solidarity tbh.

[Granny Danger]

Financial backing would certainly act as one stumbling block, but (lack of) organisation would be another. It has been evident since the failed coups against Gordon Brown that the Blairites couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. Also, the mere fact that some younger Labour members - teenagers and those in their twenties - still openly identify primarily as 'Blairite', is testament to just how intellectually and creatively moribund that faction of the Party has become. 

Of course, you don't have to identify as Blairite to be on the Labour Right - most of Brown's closest supporters would be the latter but not the former. But the few MPs and other members of the Labour Right who can organise and know how to fight - like Tom Watson and Michael Dugher, for example - would never, ever support a splinter. That's if it were feasible, which it isn't anyway.

How do you see it panning out then?

There sees an insurmountable chasm with some (many?) of the PLP holding Corbyn and his supporters in total contempt. Yet these folk surely know that a leadership challenge will fail, that it will openly expose the wounds and that they will be blamed for the effect of the fallout.

[DrewDon]

How do you see it panning out then?

There sees an insurmountable chasm with some (many?) of the PLP holding Corbyn and his supporters in total contempt. Yet these folk surely know that a leadership challenge will fail, that it will openly expose the wounds and that they will be blamed for the effect of the fallout.

I imagine there will be a challenge at some stage, but I couldn't guess when. But, as you say, any challenge will fail. Corbyn's support among the membership and unions should see him through to 2020. It's far too early to predict what will happen after then. 

The sheer extent of the divide between the PLP and the leadership, membership and unions should logically, you would think, eventually result in a split. But, for various reasons, that just isn't a feasible - or desirable - option. 

[WaffenThinMint]

Fantastic speech in the commons by Patrick Grady, the honourable member from Glasgow North. Interesting point that he is a card carrying member of Plaid Cymru. Is that common among SNP politicians?

 

The SNP encourages members to take out membership of Plaid Cymru. Ostensibly it's to show solidarity, but it's also a way to artificially bump up Plaid's membership levels to make them appear more impressive and give them much needed funds. Plaid's always been the poor relation of the two nationalist parties in terms of support and attracting funding with a far harder fight to become successful.

 

IIRC it was even mooted back in their 80s nadir that they formally merge, but this was rejected as counterproductive long before it ever got to ballotting their members.

[Mr Bairn]

The SNP encourages members to take out membership of Plaid Cymru. Ostensibly it's to show solidarity, but it's also a way to artificially bump up Plaid's membership levels to make them appear more impressive and give them much needed funds. Plaid's always been the poor relation of the two nationalist parties in terms of support and attracting funding with a far harder fight to become successful.

IIRC it was even mooted back in their 80s nadir that they formally merge, but this was rejected as counterproductive long before it ever got to ballotting their members.

I'd like to see them work with a centre-left English Independence Party (perhaps the Green Party could start focussing on English sovereignty issues) and maybe the Irish SDLP as some kind of "dissolve the UK" bloc vote.

[invergowrie arab]

The SNP encourages members to take out membership of Plaid Cymru.

No they don't.

[AUFC90]

The SNP encourages members to take out membership of Plaid Cymru. Ostensibly it's to show solidarity, but it's also a way to artificially bump up Plaid's membership levels to make them appear more impressive and give them much needed funds. Plaid's always been the poor relation of the two nationalist parties in terms of support and attracting funding with a far harder fight to become successful.

IIRC it was even mooted back in their 80s nadir that they formally merge, but this was rejected as counterproductive long before it ever got to ballotting their members.

They never mentioned plaid to me.

[Antlion]

I'd like to see them work with a centre-left English Independence Party (perhaps the Green Party could start focussing on English sovereignty issues) and maybe the Irish SDLP as some kind of "dissolve the UK" bloc vote.

I've wondered before why such a thing doesn't exist. And the main reason is, of course, that for all intents and purposes, the UK is England - as a nation, England gets its way by sheer weight of numbers. As it faces no democratic deficit, its nationalist movements focus instead on things like immigration (boo!) and fomenting fears about anyone non-English.

[Thumper]

Exactly. Independence in Scotland and Wales means independence from English rule. You can't have an English analogue to that.

[Ad Lib]

No they don't.

Waffen talking out his arse again. Quells surprise.

[Ad Lib]

I've wondered before why such a thing doesn't exist. And the main reason is, of course, that for all intents and purposes, the UK is England - as a nation, England gets its way by sheer weight of numbers. As it faces no democratic deficit, its nationalist movements focus instead on things like immigration (boo!) and fomenting fears about anyone non-English.

England gets its way... except when they want to decide for themselves whether and how foxes should be hunted or if they want to have the same law on Sunday trading as Scotland has had for decades...

[strichener]

England gets its way... except when they want to decide for themselves whether and how foxes should be hunted

What were the results of this vote?  How many Scottish MPs voted against English wishes?

England gets its way... or if they want to have the same law on Sunday trading as Scotland has had for decades...

How many English voted against this? What was the final vote? Could English Votes exclusively have changed the result?

Edited May 20, 2016 by strichener

[Ad Lib]

What were the results of these votes? How many Scottish MPs voted against English wishes?

Nice attempt to shift the goalposts.

As you well know the government had to pull the vote on fox hunting when they knew the SNP planned to vote on it, as despite the majority of English MPs supporting it that was insufficient.

But on Sunday trading, the answer to your question is that the relaxation of the laws was voted down by 317-286, and 51 SNP MPs voted against them, swinging a 19 vote victory to a 31 vote defeat.

[WaffenThinMint]

Waffen talking out his arse again. Quells surprise.

Away and get yer hole from someone other than your relations or your crusty teddy bear, ya creepy wee fud.

They never mentioned plaid to me.

It was certainly encouraged back in Wee Eck's day, the real hardcore More Celt Nat Than Thou also joining the Mebyon Kernow forlorn hope. You used to get their stalls at the party conference where they'd remind you that every extra PC MP in Parliament was someone who would work with the SNP to push the Celtic mandate. Not for me I'm afraid.

[WaffenThinMint]

I'd like to see them work with a centre-left English Independence Party (perhaps the Green Party could start focussing on English sovereignty issues) and maybe the Irish SDLP as some kind of "dissolve the UK" bloc vote.

Afraid the Greens don't trust & have never forgotten the way the YSN destroyed the original Scottish Ecology Party via infiltration to get them to vote themselves out of existence & hand over their assets to the SNP; nor the way Plaid shafted them when they won a seat on a joint ticket & the candidate immediately began engineering excuses to break the electoral pact once the job was done (Private Eye had been warning as much before the GE in question - they were proven right within six months).

Hence why the SNP had better not take for granted that the Scottish Greens will be another shower of LibDem type gutless shites that will do anything for the merest wink of future influence if they wag their tails when ordered.

[strichener]

What were the results of this vote?  How many Scottish MPs voted against English wishes?

How many English voted against this? What was the final vote? Could English Votes exclusively have changed the result?

 

I just thought I would put up my original post again.  No lets see how your response answers any of the questions.

 

Nice attempt to shift the goalposts.

As you well know the government had to pull the vote on fox hunting when they knew the SNP planned to vote on it, as despite the majority of English MPs supporting it that was insufficient.

But on Sunday trading, the answer to your question is that the relaxation of the laws was voted down by 317-286, and 51 SNP MPs voted against them, swinging a 19 vote victory to a 31 vote defeat.

 

I assume that the first sentence was an attempt to describe what was to follow as this is the only shifting of the goalposts that I can see.

 

Just to summarise then.

 

1. The SNP never actually prevented any changes to fox hunting in England.

2. The SNP are now categorised as English votes???

 

Or could it be that the fact that 27 Tory MPs voted against Sunday Trading actually was the actual reason why not only was the governement defeated but they have completely dropped the bill.

 

Sir Gerald Howarth said the late offer of concessions had been "shambolic" and looked like they had been "delivered by lastminute.com" while Stewart Jackson said the "dead hand" of the Treasury was responsible for an "egregious and unnecessary confrontation" with Tory backbenchers.

Conservative MP David Burrowes, who tabled the successful rebel amendment, said the government had not made the economic case for such sweeping changes, which he said were opposed by businesses of all sizes, shop workers and faith groups.

Speaking after the vote, he told BBC News of his "relief", adding: "The main thing out there is relief for shop workers, families and businesses who will really be pleased today."

Labour said the government's approach had been "tawdry" and the House of Commons had spoken clearly on the "contentious issue".

The Federation of Small Businesses said the outcome was a "major win" for its members.

Yep, it was the pesky SNP that dun it.

Edited May 20, 2016 by strichener

[Ad Lib]

I just thought I would put up my original post again.  No lets see how your response answers any of the questions.

You edited your post after I had started to reply. No matter.

I assume that the first sentence was an attempt to describe what was to follow as this is the only shifting of the goalposts that I can see.

 

Just to summarise then.

 

1. The SNP never actually prevented any changes to fox hunting in England.

2. The SNP are now categorised as English votes???

1. Yes they did. They forced the government to pull the vote on it.

2. This makes literally no sense.

 

Or could it be that the fact that 27 Tory MPs voted against Sunday Trading actually was the actual reason why not only was the governement defeated but they have completely dropped the bill.

 

Yep, it was the pesky SNP that dun it.

Yes, it was the SNP that did it. England doesn't just have Tory members of Parliament. Governments pass legislation with the support of opposition parties but not some of their backbenchers all the time.