General Politics Thread

[Mr Rational]

A brief recap,i cant be bothered reading all the waffle.Is ad lib wanting to shag his sister again?

He grew up in Kirkcaldy, what do you think?

[lichtgilphead]

The Scotland Bill didn't only change the law of Scotland. It completely reshaped the constitutional and fiscal arrangements of the United Kingdom as a whole.

...and changing the Sunday Trading laws down south would have had no effect whatsoever on Scottish shop workers conditions or enhanced payments for Sunday shifts?

 

Pull the other one Libby.

[Ad Lib]

...and changing the Sunday Trading laws down south would have had no effect whatsoever on Scottish shop workers conditions or enhanced payments for Sunday shifts?

 

Pull the other one Libby.

The pish Usdaw were coming out with, even if true (the evidence to substantiate it was criminally weak), is not the same as the nature of the impact of the Scotland Act on the powers of the UK Government to, for example, set income tax and cede routine control over certain aspects of welfare, the power to set the Holyrood franchise and a whole host of other things.

All major amendments to the UK's constitutional settlement represents a material change in the law of the UK as a whole in respect of which all MPs have an interest. The rules about whether supermarket can open after 6pm in Brecon or Stratford Upon Avon has f**k all to do with an MP for Caithness.

[lichtgilphead]

The pish Usdaw were coming out with, even if true (the evidence to substantiate it was criminally weak), is not the same as the nature of the impact of the Scotland Act on the powers of the UK Government to, for example, set income tax and cede routine control over certain aspects of welfare, the power to set the Holyrood franchise and a whole host of other things.

All major amendments to the UK's constitutional settlement represents a material change in the law of the UK as a whole in respect of which all MPs have an interest. The rules about whether supermarket can open after 6pm in Brecon or Stratford Upon Avon has f**k all to do with an MP for Caithness.

 

1) I didn't mention USDAW. I don't need to. I think it's pretty obvious that if the same Sunday Trading laws apply across the whole UK, then Tesco et al will attempt to 'equalise' conditions across the UK. Accordingly, it's a UK issue.

 

2) Your attempt to differentiate between amendments to the constitution and trading laws are immaterial. If it is OK for all UK MP's to vote on a matter affecting the constitution, then it's equally valid for all UK MP's to vote on a matter affecting all UK shopworkers terms & conditions.

[welshbairn]

The rules about whether a supermarket can open after 6pm in Brecon or Stratford Upon Avon has f**k all to do with an MP for Caithness.

It does if some of his constituents could be forced to work on Sundays and without existing compensation. Very little that happens in England has no effect on Scotland. The Fox hunting thing was embarrassing though, even Sturgeon looked like she wished it hadn't happened.

[Ad Lib]

1) I didn't mention USDAW. I don't need to. I think it's pretty obvious that if the same Sunday Trading laws apply across the whole UK, then Tesco et al will attempt to 'equalise' conditions across the UK. Accordingly, it's a UK issue.

 

2) Your attempt to differentiate between amendments to the constitution and trading laws are immaterial. If it is OK for all UK MP's to vote on a matter affecting the constitution, then it's equally valid for all UK MP's to vote on a matter affecting all UK shopworkers terms & conditions.

1. Irrelevant. Moreover, the laws aren't actually going to be identical across the UK. The proposal was to allow English councils to relax the rules if they wanted to, but the practical effect would have been to bring English and Welsh opening hours more closely into line with Scottish ones. If the decisions of employers with employees in England and Wales are capable of affecting the interests of Scottish employees to such a degree that it justifies Scottish MPs voting on legislation relation to them, then the logic of this argument is that English and Welsh MPs should be allowed to set the law in Scotland in relation to Sunday trading. Neither you nor the SNP support that, I suspect.

2. No it's completely material. It's formed the basis on which the English Veto on English-only Laws has come into place and was the basis for the Sewel Convention. It's a question of competences. What private employers do in response to the prevailing laws of the land is incidental and not core to, a legislative proposal. The legislative proposal does not affect all UK shopworkers' terms and conditions. The decisions of their employers do.

[Ad Lib]

It does if some of his constituents could be forced to work on Sundays and without existing compensation. Very little that happens in England has no effect on Scotland. The Fox hunting thing was embarrassing though, even Sturgeon looked like she wished it hadn't happened.

One of his constituents could be forced to work on Sunday's without compensation at the moment, with or without any change to the laws of England. This is irrelevant.

[Shades75]

After 10:30pm and this maniacal sad sack is still at it.

Get. Your. Hole.

[lichtgilphead]

1. Irrelevant. Moreover, the laws aren't actually going to be identical across the UK. The proposal was to allow English councils to relax the rules if they wanted to, but the practical effect would have been to bring English and Welsh opening hours more closely into line with Scottish ones. If the decisions of employers with employees in England and Wales are capable of affecting the interests of Scottish employees to such a degree that it justifies Scottish MPs voting on legislation relation to them, then the logic of this argument is that English and Welsh MPs should be allowed to set the law in Scotland in relation to Sunday trading. Neither you nor the SNP support that, I suspect.

2. No it's completely material. It's formed the basis on which the English Veto on English-only Laws has come into place and was the basis for the Sewel Convention. It's a question of competences. What private employers do in response to the prevailing laws of the land is incidental and not core to, a legislative proposal. The legislative proposal does not affect all UK shopworkers' terms and conditions. The decisions of their employers do.

 

1a) The laws have never been absolutely identical across Scotland, never mind the UK. Are you too young to remember the days when you could buy a scud magazine in Glasgow on a Sunday, but not a bible? 

 

1b) As a Unionist, I'm sure that you would prefer English & Welsh MP's to set the law in Scotland, as they did in all areas pre-devolution. Personally, I prefer a different future

 

2) I disagree. How private employers deal with their employees has always been subject to legislation. If a change to English laws could adversely affect Scottish employees, I would suggest that as long as these Scottish MP's are members of the UK Parliament, they are under a duty to attempt to maintain or improve those employee's rights.

 

Obviously, if we choose to leave the UK, then this obligation would cease. I am not suggesting that a change to English Sunday Trading laws would affect Tesco Ireland or Tesco Poland employees. However, I am strongly of the opinion that Tesco's decisions will be based upon what they consider to be "UK" law. 

[Shades75]

1a) The laws have never been absolutely identical across Scotland, never mind the UK. Are you too young to remember the days when you could buy a scud magazine in Glasgow on a Sunday, but not a bible?

1b) As a Unionist, I'm sure that you would prefer English & Welsh MP's to set the law in Scotland, as they did in all areas pre-devolution. Personally, I prefer a different future

2) I disagree. How private employers deal with their employees has always been subject to legislation. If a change to English laws could adversely affect Scottish employees, I would suggest that as long as these Scottish MP's are members of the UK Parliament, they are under a duty to attempt to maintain or improve those employee's rights.

Obviously, if we choose to leave the UK, then this obligation would cease. I am not suggesting that a change to English Sunday Trading laws would affect Tesco Ireland or Tesco Poland employees. However, I am strongly of the opinion that Tesco's decisions will be based upon what they consider to be "UK" law.

And you too.

[lichtgilphead]

And you too.

 

I'm over 50, have a bottle of wine inside me & Mrs Gilp is off to bed already. I have an excuse.

 

At Libby's age, however...

Edited May 20, 2016 by lichtgilphead

[Shades75]

I'm over 50, have a bottle of wine inside me & Mr's Gilp is off to bed already. I have an excuse.

At Libby's age, however...

That's me right there too - apart from i'm just over 40!

That Ad-lib yin though eh?

Frustrated history teacher in the making. Maybe one day he'll be able to wipe away a tear and impart some of his regrets on some wide-eyed yet saveable teenager...

"Don't waste your youth arguing with strangers on the internet....like I did......sniff,......snotters.....etc........"

[Granny Danger]

Maybe we need to disengage with Ad Lib. If he has a full scale breakdown we will all feel guilty.

[DrewDon]

These debates really should be taking place down at the Politics Bar. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

These debates really should be taking place down at the Politics Bar.

That would require Libby Nomates to have someone to debate with in the Politics Bar.

An unlikely scenario.

[jmothecat]

I'm a member of USDAW but think that the situation was ridiculous. A majority of English MPs wanted to change a law that would only apply to England but Scottish MPs would have blocked it despite Scotland enjoying the benefit of that law, based on nothing but speculation that private companies might change Sunday enhancements.

This doesn't make much sense to me as firstly shops are open in England on Sundays down here, it's just large ones are restricted, and even they are open for six hours. These large companies want to be open longer as there is a financial benefit to staying open longer, why would they change their pay structures when they are being benefitted?

How many retail companies actually give enhancements at weekends anyway? Can't be many.

[AUFC90]

I'm a member of USDAW but think that the situation was ridiculous. A majority of English MPs wanted to change a law that would only apply to England but Scottish MPs would have blocked it despite Scotland enjoying the benefit of that law, based on nothing but speculation that private companies might change Sunday enhancements.

This doesn't make much sense to me as firstly shops are open in England on Sundays down here, it's just large ones are restricted, and even they are open for six hours. These large companies want to be open longer as there is a financial benefit to staying open longer, why would they change their pay structures when they are being benefitted?

How many retail companies actually give enhancements at weekends anyway? Can't be many.

If a majority of English MPs wanted to change the law then the law would have changed.

[Granny Danger]

If a majority of English MPs wanted to change the law then the law would have changed.

Yeah, I've checked the arithmetic and you are correct.

[Wee Willie]

 This is a functional formality and does not vitiate the underlying fact that a majority of English MPs have been denied a law that they want for their country.

The overwhelming majority of Scots MP's wanted Trident to be removed from Scottish soil - is this the same argument?

[Ad Lib]

If a majority of English MPs wanted to change the law then the law would have changed.

A majority of English MPs *did* want the law to change.

There are 533 English MPs. To have a majority that means 267 MPs supporting a proposal.

286 MPs voted for the government's position on Sunday Trading.

One of them was a Scottish MP (David Mundell).

Not a single Labour MP supported the provision. So we can't subtract from that total any Labour MPs in Scotland or Wales.

Not a single Northern Irish MP supported the provision.

This means we could only ever subtract from 285 any non-Labour MPs in Wales.

There are 11 Welsh Tory MPs. All Plaid and Lib Dem Welsh MPs voted against the Government or abstained.

286, minus 1 for Scotland, minus a maximum of 11 for Wales, is 274. If a majority is 267, then 274 is the majority of English MPs.

ETA: there were only four non-Tory MPs who voted with the government. That means 282 of those who voted with them must have been Tories. So from an England perspective even the governing party got a clear majority in favour of its proposals from within its own ranks alone. A narrow one, but a majority nonetheless.

Thanks for playing.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Ad Lib