eliphas Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) Anyway, we can revisit this whole conversation again when we play Celtic in a few weeks. Yay. To tomorrow and Aberdeen. Strap Moult together. Give Aarons some ibuprofen and let's go! Edited October 21, 2022 by eliphas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Aberdeen you say? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Get the home games against the OF off TV - easier said than done I know, but get them back to Saturday or Sunday (when European games are a factor) at 3pm. Encourage stay away fans (and most importantly stay away ST fans) back to these games. The club are on record as saying turnout amongst ST holders is at its lowest for games against the OF. Make Fir Park as inhospitable for the OF and their fans as possible. Currently they must have fixtures against us market on their calendar as a Jolly Boys' Outing. Get back to treating humiliating defeats as they should be - unacceptable. Getting pumped by the OF should be treated as an embarrassment and nothing else. The media team, management and everyone at the club can help shape the narrative here. We shouldn't accept it as fans and neither should they. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well fan for life Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Just realised I'll miss the Motherwell - Celtic game in a couple of weeks because I'm away to see Confidence Man. A real victory in my life tbh. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezz Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Seems like the Louis Moult gamble isn’t one that’s going to pay off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casagolda Posted October 21, 2022 Author Share Posted October 21, 2022 Who’d have thought a guy that’d only played 17 games in the last 3 years might be a bit injury prone? To be fair to Hammell, I don’t really blame him. The club and Alexander seemed to waste the entire summer in some bizarre stand off and Hammell was left to pick up the pieces when things inevitably came to a head. Any players we were talking to or deals that were in the pipeline would have went tits up when we got papped out by Sligo and Alexander left. We were left scrambling about towards the end of the window and it’s probably not a surprise that Hammell took a punt on a few players he knows. As feared though, the signings of Aarons and Moult have backfired spectacularly with both crocked already and neither contributing a thing of note so far. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, eliphas said: I rarely disagree with what you post but I do here, respectfully. The financial clout they have grows year on year. It's a fact, a huge and heavy fact, and absolutely not a cop out. In my opinion it's a larger part of the argument than saying players and managers essentially don't have the mental attitude for it. If that's the case then 20 years worth of squads and managers have suddenly pitched up in Lanarkshire and been brainwashed by immediately into not winning against the old firm. The answer, as others have said too is its a bit if everything. I should say, I still go to every game v them expecting something. But I'm not surprised when we don't get anything I still wish they'd f**k off. It would be much more pleasant. That's fine, you don't have to agree with me . Again, for clarity, I'm not disputing that there is a wild financial disparity and it means that they can afford better players than us which in turn means that they'll beat us more often than not and yes...it's all a bit shite. To be absolutely clear, I'm not one of those oddballs who's sat having an aneurysm because we've lost to the OF. I don't expect us to beat them - I'd like us to all the same. I suppose my point (if I actually have one) is that for all that financial disparity I don't believe the current gap means there's any greater a difference in terms of the players on the park than there has been at other times over the past 20 odd years or more? Ultimately for all the money they have there's a ceiling on the level of player they can attract because of the league they play in and wages they can pay. You see that when they're getting their arses handed to them across Europe. For example, is this current Celtic team materially better than the Brendan Rodgers side (that we were within 3 mins of beating and drew with while playing with 10 men for an hour) or O'Neill's side? For me, not really. Is this Rangers side better than the one they had when they were chucking their EBTs about or when they were signing the likes of Gascoigne and Laudrup? Again, I don't think so. I suppose the reason I think that leaning on the financial stuff heavily as a reason is a cop out is that in the 20 years since we last beat Rangers in the league there have been plenty of peer group clubs who have managed to beat them whereas we consistently fall short. Of course it's a factor but to place all of the blame on it is really just excusing our own failings. I used Killie as an example, they had a team including Jamie McDonald, Kirk Broadfoot, Rory McKenzie and our very own Stephen O'Donnell. Then again, they had hired an exceptional manager for this level in Steve Clarke when they were bottom of the league - which brings us back to the point that there's probably more to it than there being a gap in quality on the park. I lean towards the Rangers issue not least because I detest them and everything they stand for but also it's hard not to look at the 20 years and think that there's just something weird about that. To paraphrase McCall's resignation letter he sent out - at least we've beat Celtic a couple of times. I'm not looking at it from the POV of the here and now but rather over the the period of 20 years where we've had legitimately good teams yet haven't been able to beat Rangers when other clubs in our peer group have at least been able to take a puncher's chance. As @YassinMoutaouakil says in a previous post the correct answer is "all of the above". Edited October 21, 2022 by capt_oats 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swello Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Thinking back - the teams that have tended to beat the OF (and give them a hard game consistently) have unsurprisingly been our better/most effective teams - and it would be slightly hard to argue that our current team could be mentioned in the same breath as McLean/McGhee/McCall/Robinson's best teams. The money is a massive factor but I'm also sure that the OF much prefer to play against our current jobbing team on a bowling green pitch than being beaten to a bloody pulp by Bowman, Hartley & Kipre, chasing Humphrey and Ojamaa about the place or dreading seeing Coyne and Arnott lining up against them in the old days. We can't lay a glove on them as the quality/effectiveness of our team is currently a lot lower relatively speaking than it has been at times in the past. Watching the game the other night for example, I was thinking that the Celtic team that they put out would not have been suited to a high tempo, physical game that you relate with big cup ties - but we played it with all the passion of a group stages game against Annan. When you call to mind the cup QF's against Utd and Aberdeen at Fir Park and compare it to the meek acceptance that we saw the other night - that's not a money based thing just a statement of the squad as it is post Alexander. I don't expect us to beat the OF regularly or consistently but I 100% do expect us to pick up "some points" every season out of 7 or 8 games against them - and I expect us to make them uncomfortable at the least when it's our home game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoF Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 1 hour ago, capt_oats said: I suppose the reason I think that leaning on the financial stuff heavily as a reason is a cop out is that in the 20 years since we last beat Rangers in the league there have been plenty of peer group clubs who have managed to beat them whereas we consistently fall short. Of course it's a factor but to place all of the blame on it is really just excusing our own failings. I think you’re right that there’s a case to make that they’re not any better or worse than they have been over the last few decades, but I’m inclined to think the quality of player we attract isn’t what it was through the 90s - that’s the most recent era folk look back all misty eyed on because we gave them a game. Looking at those squads, we had some shite but we were also paying fees for players which are fantasy now and that’s before you even put them through a football inflation calculator. In that sense the quality gap has probably grown. it’s all kinda irrelevant though, as you say - everyone else has managed to do it over the last twenty years when we haven’t. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YassinMoutaouakil Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 The Rangers thing doesn't really bother me, ngl. I'd rather we'd beat them more than 3 times in two decades but I don't particularly care if its the league or the cup that we do it in. In fact, I definitely look back on the playoffs and 2017 semi more than I do beating Celtic in random league games. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) The thing that frustrates the life out of me, and has for as long as I remember, is that there there absolutely needs to be a change of mentality when you come up against the old firm. What I mean by that is, ordinarily against another side...even a decent Hearts/Hibs/Aberdeen side....our players are often comparitively decent and they will get the ball and be like "have a touch, compose, look up...play a nice pass/decide to beat a man/have an effort on goal". And that's all well and good. Where the change in mentality is needed, is that against the Old Firm (particularly Celtic at the moment), that process gets about as far as "get the ball, have a tou...FUCKING WHACKKKKKK!!!!!" and then we don't have the ball anymore, everyone's caught on the back foot and having their own "oh shit" moment. Celtic don't really defend in Scotland....their focus is on not allowing the other team to attack in the first place, and that's most definitely not the same thing. You don't have time to be cute against the old firm. Attempting to play football is fine, but you must do it quickly, and that's where we get caught out. Having footballing ability is one thing, but having the ability to combine that ability with speed of thought and instinct, is a completely different bag of spanners. Stop thinking you have time to turn, take a look and play a cute ball. You don't. By all means play that cute ball...but only if you can do it without needing the first 2 stages of that. I'm not saying there isn't a difference in ability, but it's not as big as most people think. The main difference is the speed of thought required to carry something out. For example....David Turnbull wasn't doing things at Motherwell that the other players couldn't do. It was that he could do them instinctively in a split-second without thinking, which the other players couldn't do. tl;dr - In games like this, only do things that you can do without having to think, and be honest with yourself about where that point lies in your ability. Edited October 21, 2022 by Al B 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoF Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 33 minutes ago, Al B said: tl;dr - In games like this, only do things that you can do without having to think, and be honest with yourself about where that point lies in your ability. I read the long and short version there and I’ll be honest, I’ve absolutely no idea what you mean. I don’t have the answers, but you seem to be suggesting players should just pass without thinking. Sounds like a recipe for misplaced passes all over the shop. I get they don’t have the time to think, but thats the conundrum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapowzer Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 The fans, press, turnover and record books are all realistic as to the size of the task. What I don't want to see, read or hear is the manager or players publically making excuses or apologies in advance of a competitive sporting fixture. What they may think privately is a different matter but it's a bit of a kick in the baws to someone paying 1/19th of a season ticket or £25 quid on the gate to have a towel effectively thrown in advance. And you want us to get fired up and be your 12th man? Taking what meager wind there is out any sails is not the way. Similar to Al B, what really makes the fixture spicy is when an event happens (usually a tasty challenge), gets a "yassss", "intae them" so do it early. And has the double effect of rattling them and firing the game up. It immediately raises the atmosphere and God forbid give the illusion we're actually up for it. Someone like Blair Spittal should be instructed to just clatter someone in the yellow but not quite red category. Can't be Slattery as he will pick up a yellow later or Goss as he may have to take one for the team like McGregor did at Parkhead. Then play clever and streetwise, eliminate errors and don't scramble clearances to let them start again without any respite. @CoF I understood it is don't be too cute and think you're Zidane or try and get the pundits talking about you at half time as its inevitably been picked up for a live game. Against them our players don't have the time afforded by others so with that in mind, play accordingly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RostokMcSpoons Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 I'm a little sad to see everyone's favourite Stegasaurus fan lost his job earlier today. But not a great surprise tbh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said: I'm a little sad to see everyone's favourite Stegasaurus fan lost his job earlier today. But not a great surprise tbh How quickly do we think Robinson got his CV in? Edited October 21, 2022 by capt_oats 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RostokMcSpoons Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 It was either measured in nano seconds, or do you think he might not go for it at all (this time around, at least)? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsjoe_mfc Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 I would wonder if he’d want it. I think Bara was on a hiding to nothing. O’Neill had struck it lucky with having 6 or 7 guys playing at a decent EPL level or thereabouts, which they’ve never had before or since. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoF Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Kapowzer said: @CoF I understood it is don't be too cute and think you're Zidane or try and get the pundits talking about you at half time as its inevitably been picked up for a live game. Against them our players don't have the time afforded by others so with that in mind, play accordingly. Ah, fair enough. IMO, trying to be too fancy is pretty far down on the list of reasons we always get beat. In fact, it's never even entered my head. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) 35 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said: I would wonder if he’d want it. I think Bara was on a hiding to nothing. O’Neill had struck it lucky with having 6 or 7 guys playing at a decent EPL level or thereabouts, which they’ve never had before or since. He's consistently said it's a job he wants "at some point". The vibe he gave when he interviewed when he was with us was basically that it wasn't the right time for him. Which suggests they might have offered him it but he's true to his word in saying he wanted to speak to them but it wasn't right. Equally there's a strong "didn't fancy her anyway" angle. I've mentioned this before but he did a lengthy interview with a Bournemouth podcast while he was between jobs after he resigned here and he was quite open about the fact that he felt that in hindsight he should have left that summer but he'd decided to stick around for Europe and the like. The interesting part IMO was his admission that he'd applied for the Bournemouth job while he was at Motherwell but (clearly) didn't get it. To which his point was that he felt he had misjudged the level of currency that 2 Cup Finals and a 3rd place finish with Motherwell gave him. By the time he was doing that interview he'd taken us from 3rd to the bottom of the league and subsequently resigned which meant he was slightly less in demand. Reading between the lines I don't think he'd make that mistake again if he got a crack of a job he really wanted. Edited October 21, 2022 by capt_oats 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YassinMoutaouakil Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 He finished 9th with St Mirren last season. Taken a club that size as far as they can go? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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