Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Swello]

On Furlong I'd really like us to sign him as he has had a great audition under difficult circumstances and he obviously has potential to get (considerably) better - someone we could benefit from now and profit from later. 

[Gianfranco]

Furlong and Max have been tremendous out balls. They are going to be so hard to replace.

[ropy]

Maybe there are hundreds of these full back/wing backs in the English academies, get a new couple every season?

[Archie McSquackle]

1 hour ago, Kapowzer said:

Wholesome Wee Al content in the Athletic. No Paywall Linky

 

There's also good interview with him in The Scottish Football Podcast (32 minutes in for those who don't want to listen to them wittering on).

https://www.podbean.com/ea/dir-7d2ne-18095d9d

[Swami]

I thought Campbell was absolutely mental going to Luton. Turns out it might have been the best move he could have made. 

[Handsome_Devil]

Furlong has done brilliantly. He proved me totally wrong as he seemed rabbit in headlights at first but you do wonder whether he's quite as capable as a traditional left back rather than wing-back.

[Kapowzer]

Can someone in the know advise the following, the VAR incident on Saturday, if Kev was onside however Goss' challenge was a red, would the goal have been chopped off and a free kick to Killie given?

[Al B]

31 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

Can someone in the know advise the following, the VAR incident on Saturday, if Kev was onside however Goss' challenge was a red, would the goal have been chopped off and a free kick to Killie given?

Yeah, they'll go back to the start of the passage of play that led to the goal and each time they spot an incident they check it. If it's fine then they run forward through the passage of play until they spot anything else contentious, and then check that. If they reach the goal going in and they haven't found anything wrong, the goal is given. If they find something wrong then at that point it's treated as if it was spotted at the time, and as if nothing after that happened.

 

The other thing to note that a lot of people don't realise, is that every single goal is checked behind the scenes. We only find out about the ones where the ref has been notified that they might have found something.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Al B

[Kapowzer]

Yeah I knew about the every goal thing but didn't realise how far back they went, so last time ball was dead essentially?

I just watched the VARdict on the BBC Scotland page where top knot Lamont and Stuart Dougal talked through it. One thing did raise a smile, they said that at grounds without a screen they should tell the fans what's going on, but in one of the replays you can hear Speedie over the tannoy conveying it was for suspected foul play.

They said the issue at Fir Park is down to the camera locations (I guess the POD going for 3/4 of the touchline?). But KVV's offside was pretty clear even if I'm not a fan of millimeters being used to differentiate. But 4 minutes for both incidents combined was a joke.

[wellboy1991]

6 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Believe it or not, he taught me to drive. He's a great guy, despite his employers!

Was a decent player back in the day aswell. 

[Handsome_Devil]

8 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

Yeah I knew about the every goal thing but didn't realise how far back they went, so last time ball was dead essentially?

I just watched the VARdict on the BBC Scotland page where top knot Lamont and Stuart Dougal talked through it. One thing did raise a smile, they said that at grounds without a screen they should tell the fans what's going on, but in one of the replays you can hear Speedie over the tannoy conveying it was for suspected foul play.

They said the issue at Fir Park is down to the camera locations (I guess the POD going for 3/4 of the touchline?). But KVV's offside was pretty clear even if I'm not a fan of millimeters being used to differentiate. But 4 minutes for both incidents combined was a joke.

I don't think the ball needs to be dead, I think a new phase can start at certain points like it does for judging offside.

The pause on Saturday summed up all that's wrong with it, total farce.

[joewarkfanclub]

Great to see wee Al doing so well down south. I must admit, I did wonder how he would cope with the physicality down there. There was no doubting his ability or attitude, but I did wonder if he would be quick/athletic enough to shine down there. He has clearly worked very hard on improving all aspects of his game. Would be great to see him in the Premiership.

As for Furlong, I was really impressed with his performance on Saturday. Armstrong is a very difficult opponent, and he never gave him a sniff. He also managed to get the balance right between defence and attack. If we can get him on a permanent contract it would be a very good bit of business.

[Alanos]

3 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I don't think the ball needs to be dead, I think a new phase can start at certain points like it does for judging offside.

The pause on Saturday summed up all that's wrong with it, total farce.

I believe VAR goes back to the start of the phase, like you say. This is generally when the ball is moving forward.

[bunglebonce]

On 08/05/2023 at 11:15, capt_oats said:

Genuinely interested to know if what we've been getting over the last 10 games is an accurate representation of Kettleball? I think I've asked this before (and you probably answered at the time) but what was his preferred shape at County?

I don't think he ever had a preferred shape. What you have seen so far is Kettlewell shape a system to get the most out of the best players in the squad and mitigate against their deficiencies. 

A potted history:

• Spoiler

  • When he took the u20s he would use a mix of 4-4-2, 4-1-4-1 and 4-2-3-1. Always a back four, as far as I remember.
  • When he and Steven Ferguson replaced Owen Coyle, they used a 4-2-3-1 in their first match, with Davis Keillor-Dunn, Ryan Dow and Michael Gardyne in the band of '3' i.e. all nippy but not pacy playmaker types.
  • They quickly abandoned that to go to 3-5-2 until the end of the season. That system was to make sure that they could have a battling midfield and still fit two strikers on the pitch (Billy Mckay and Alex Schalk), while they had enough reasonable centre-backs to spare. They were deficient in midfield and wing-back but it was a necessary compromise.
  • The next season was in the Championship. Kettlewell and Ferguson started with a mix of 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 and 4-1-4-1/4-3-3. The strategy was to play on the front foot and dominate teams. It worked when they had enough players fit, but they had so many defensive injuries that it hampered putting out a consistent style, and they staggered over the line. There was some flirtation with a back three in the second half of the season out of necessity. 
  • Season 19/20 in the Premiership again was mostly 4-1-4-1 or 4-4-2. In the case of the latter, playing Brian Graham and Ross Stewart as two big lumps up top gave the management a lot of flexibility. Ross Stewart's work ethic and running power meant that he could be used on one of the flanks at a pinch (i.e. whenever one of the diddy full-backs was being over-run), so they could switch to 4-1-4-1 quite easily.
  • 20/21 saw Kettlewell take charge on his own. Ross Stewart was the player with the highest potential but his scoring form collapsed, failing to score from open play in the first half of the season. It was a mix of 4-1-4-1 and 4-2-3-1, normally with Stewart as a winger but tasked with trying to get in to the far post as well. There were squad deficiencies everywhere but Kettlewell made it clear recently that he was on a huge budget-saving mission for the club.
  • That is the season that things went bad because Kettlewell gambled on replacing an ageing, injury prone defence with players in their early 20s. Alex Iacovitti and Coll Donaldson were the first-choice centre-backs, two defenders who were able to step out with the ball and keep a high defensive line. Donaldson looked great (don't laugh) when he joined in January '20, alongside a leader, but there wasn't enough experience Donaldson and Iacovitti it to work.
  • Kettlewell tried to evolve the team into being more than just being direct, or on the back foot, he wanted to mould a progressive style for the team to punch above its weight, on a smaller budget than before, and it backfired. They finished the season with the most penalties conceded in the league (Donaldson gave away more than half of them). He put too much trust in Vigurs that season whose influence was as much a hindrance as a help, IMO. Stewart's form in front of goal cost him the job in the end, but Stewart was being pushed from pillar to post to patch up the rest of the team, when a run of matches in his best position would surely have seen him score more, as his form at Sunderland has shown. 

   

As far as signings go, Kettlewell likes a project player. Ross Stewart, Regan Charles Cook and Jamie Lindsay are the best examples of players who made good moves afterwards. The common denominator among the three is the willingness to learn and put the time into training over and above what was expected. 

Coaches evolve so I can't say what Kettlewell is wanting for next season, but if he doesn't have Van Veen then he doesn't need to build a team to play two strikers. He won't have Max Johnston to dominate a flank on his own. He will have Goss so will need a three-man midfield to make that work. You won't see what Callum Davidson did at St Johnstone in sticking to a formation that suited the best players who have since gone.

In my opinion, you are more likely to see a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 than a three-at-the-back system in the long term, because on a very general level there greater flexibility in moving from 'Plan A' to 'Plan B' from there.

What we see from here is uncharted territory in a sense. Kettlewell's last attempt at evolving a team didn't go well, but his resources won't be so restricted this time around.

[Kapowzer]

2 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Great to see wee Al doing so well down south. I must admit, I did wonder how he would cope with the physicality down there. There was no doubting his ability or attitude, but I did wonder if he would be quick/athletic enough to shine down there. He has clearly worked very hard on improving all aspects of his game. Would be great to see him in the Premiership.

As for Furlong, I was really impressed with his performance on Saturday. Armstrong is a very difficult opponent, and he never gave him a sniff. He also managed to get the balance right between defence and attack. If we can get him on a permanent contract it would be a very good bit of business.

Reading through their message board which does have strong white van Brexit energy. Lots of love for Wee Al for last season, this year he's not hit the same heights but has been used less due to other players coming on to a game under their new manager (sound familiar). Seems they have an embarrassment of riches in midfield but still almost universal love for his workrate.

[capt_oats]

30 minutes ago, bunglebonce said:

I don't think he ever had a preferred shape. What you have seen so far is Kettlewell shape a system to get the most out of the best players in the squad and mitigate against their deficiencies. 

A potted history:

•   Reveal hidden contents

  • When he took the u20s he would use a mix of 4-4-2, 4-1-4-1 and 4-2-3-1. Always a back four, as far as I remember.
  • When he and Steven Ferguson replaced Owen Coyle, they used a 4-2-3-1 in their first match, with Davis Keillor-Dunn, Ryan Dow and Michael Gardyne in the band of '3' i.e. all nippy but not pacy playmaker types.
  • They quickly abandoned that to go to 3-5-2 until the end of the season. That system was to make sure that they could have a battling midfield and still fit two strikers on the pitch (Billy Mckay and Alex Schalk), while they had enough reasonable centre-backs to spare. They were deficient in midfield and wing-back but it was a necessary compromise.
  • The next season was in the Championship. Kettlewell and Ferguson started with a mix of 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 and 4-1-4-1/4-3-3. The strategy was to play on the front foot and dominate teams. It worked when they had enough players fit, but they had so many defensive injuries that it hampered putting out a consistent style, and they staggered over the line. There was some flirtation with a back three in the second half of the season out of necessity. 
  • Season 19/20 in the Premiership again was mostly 4-1-4-1 or 4-4-2. In the case of the latter, playing Brian Graham and Ross Stewart as two big lumps up top gave the management a lot of flexibility. Ross Stewart's work ethic and running power meant that he could be used on one of the flanks at a pinch (i.e. whenever one of the diddy full-backs was being over-run), so they could switch to 4-1-4-1 quite easily.
  • 20/21 saw Kettlewell take charge on his own. Ross Stewart was the player with the highest potential but his scoring form collapsed, failing to score from open play in the first half of the season. It was a mix of 4-1-4-1 and 4-2-3-1, normally with Stewart as a winger but tasked with trying to get in to the far post as well. There were squad deficiencies everywhere but Kettlewell made it clear recently that he was on a huge budget-saving mission for the club.
  • That is the season that things went bad because Kettlewell gambled on replacing an ageing, injury prone defence with players in their early 20s. Alex Iacovitti and Coll Donaldson were the first-choice centre-backs, two defenders who were able to step out with the ball and keep a high defensive line. Donaldson looked great (don't laugh) when he joined in January '20, alongside a leader, but there wasn't enough experience Donaldson and Iacovitti it to work.
  • Kettlewell tried to evolve the team into being more than just being direct, or on the back foot, he wanted to mould a progressive style for the team to punch above its weight, on a smaller budget than before, and it backfired. They finished the season with the most penalties conceded in the league (Donaldson gave away more than half of them). He put too much trust in Vigurs that season whose influence was as much a hindrance as a help, IMO. Stewart's form in front of goal cost him the job in the end, but Stewart was being pushed from pillar to post to patch up the rest of the team, when a run of matches in his best position would surely have seen him score more, as his form at Sunderland has shown. 

As far as signings go, Kettlewell likes a project player. Ross Stewart, Regan Charles Cook and Jamie Lindsay are the best examples of players who made good moves afterwards. The common denominator among the three is the willingness to learn and put the time into training over and above what was expected. 

Coaches evolve so I can't say what Kettlewell is wanting for next season, but if he doesn't have Van Veen then he doesn't need to build a team to play two strikers. He won't have Max Johnston to dominate a flank on his own. He will have Goss so will need a three-man midfield to make that work. You won't see what Callum Davidson did at St Johnstone in sticking to a formation that suited the best players who have since gone.

In my opinion, you are more likely to see a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 than a three-at-the-back system in the long term, because on a very general level there greater flexibility in moving from 'Plan A' to 'Plan B' from there.

What we see from here is uncharted territory in a sense. Kettlewell's last attempt at evolving a team didn't go well, but his resources won't be so restricted this time around.

Amazing! Cheers for that.

As I say, I know next to nothing about Kettlewell as a coach so from my POV it's interesting to hear this stuff and try and get a handle on him.

I suppose for context we're coming from a place where we had Robinson in the building for 3+ seasons and he was/is a coach/manager who had very specific things that he liked when it came to recruitment (you could profile a Stephen Robinson signing a mile off when he was here) and system (I notice he's talking about how 433 is his preference in Paisley now - which was exactly his line when he was here as well).

Hammell's brief tenure had parallels with Davidson in terms of trying to force players into a shape they clearly weren't suited to (4231 in Hammell's case) so Kettlewell taking a make do and mend approach (as @thisGRAEME put it a couple of pages back) has been welcome and I wonder how much of an impact having Frail alongside him as his assistant has helped with transitioning from the absolute fucking mess we saw in Kirkcaldy to what we have now - a largely functioning football team.

Edited May 9, 2023 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

PFA Scotland Team of The Year for the big man...

Edited May 9, 2023 by capt_oats

[ropy]

At the point of Kettlewell being appointed as permanent manager I heard one of the Radio Scotland pundits talk about a post midweek Sportsound discussion in the car park with SK.  SK had by that time had an opportunity to reflect on his time at RC and knew what he would do in the future and how he would want a whole club structure to look like and operate.

So his actions at RC may not be a good indicator of his on going approach.

What he does at Motherwell will be a result of his learning from his experiences.  And hopefully that will continue to evolve .

Edited May 9, 2023 by ropy

[Busta Nut]

I'd love KVV to win player of the year. The tears from certain supporters would rehydrate 1980's Ethiopia. 

[Swello]

42 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

PFA Scotland Team of The Year for the big man...

To see that much green and white and for one of them to not win POTY is unthinkable, especially given the number of sellic-minded voters - but either one of Duk or KVV would be fucking brilliant.

Also - (and I know they are good players BTW) - having 3 defenders from a team that never need to defend seems a bit much.