Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

['WellDel]

As well as off it, a big part of the shambles on the park is down to a lack of leadership on it too. O'Donnell is not vocal enough, and although Kelly does a fair bit of shouting when he has the armband, I'm not big on keepers being captain. 

You need a dominant centre half or commanding midfielder to inspire and cajole the best out of those around them. When you go a goal down, as we invariably do most weeks, you need a strong and vocal character to marshal the lines, demand the best from those around him and drag you back into it. We simply have no-one in that mould. Not one single leader, and that's criminal. We are weak as piss all over the park.

Add to that the lack of leadership from the sidelines and late, useless substitutions when games are gone etc and you end up where we are - rudderless and dropping like a stone.

[Alert Mongoose]

18 hours ago, welldaft said:

Clearly a guesstimate but I would expect GA to be on at least £150k a year. This came no doubt with a bump for his contract extension. As an assistant I would expect Lucketti to be on £75k- £100k a year.

So easily £200k+ for the both of them. 2.5+ years left on contract. £500k +

This can't be accurate? Surely not.

[Allroy for Prez]

I actually don’t care if we finish top 6 despite the obvious financial benefits it brings and the fact that it generally indicates a reasonably successful season.  Even if we do somehow shitfest our way there, which we won’t as that would require winning the next 2 games, the ends doesn’t justify the means nor does it paint over the utter shambles we’ve suffered in 2022. The problems would still remain and the directionless garbage would only continue. 

I’m not a football purest and don’t expect Motherwell to play sexy football, in fact I absolutely love to see us get stuck in more than anything, but what I absolutely cannot abide is undisciplined, tactic free hit and hope nothingness, and that’s what we’ve been getting in spades for too long.

Alexanderball has managed to sicken hardened Motherwell fans of 30 years plus and counting the way nothing they’ve ever seen before has.

Out of interest, has any team ever went an entire 2nd half of a season without winning a game? Unless there is a change at the top I could honestly see us achieving that. 

 

[rowsdower]

As well as off it, a big part of the shambles on the park is down to a lack of leadership on it too. O'Donnell is not vocal enough, and although Kelly does a fair bit of shouting when he has the armband, I'm not big on keepers being captain. 
You need a dominant centre half or commanding midfielder to inspire and cajole the best out of those around them. When you go a goal down, as we invariably do most weeks, you need a strong and vocal character to marshal the lines, demand the best from those around him and drag you back into it. We simply have no-one in that mould. Not one single leader, and that's criminal. We are weak as piss all over the park.
Add to that the lack of leadership from the sidelines and late, useless substitutions when games are gone etc and you end up where we are - rudderless and dropping like a stone.

That's a stereotype and I don't believe it's true. There's more to captaincy than what happens on the pitch for 90ish minutes, and there's more to leadership than shouting and bawling at folk. Whether O'Donnell is good at those things is more for management and the players to decide.

Unless the captain starts deciding tactics and signing players, I think the shoutiness of SOD is the least of our issues. If we set up with our best team and do the basics right, then suddenly people won't care who the board/captain/media team/groundsman is.

[KirkySuperSub]

14 minutes ago, Allroy for Prez said:

Out of interest, has any team ever went an entire 2nd half of a season without winning a game? Unless there is a change at the top I could honestly see us achieving that. 

That'd be nearly the exact opposite of Arsenal's famous "Invincibles" team. We better get thinking of a name to call us.

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

The Mincibles 

[capt_oats]

24 minutes ago, Allroy for Prez said:

Out of interest, has any team ever went an entire 2nd half of a season without winning a game? Unless there is a change at the top I could honestly see us achieving that. 

We've already won a game in the 2nd half of the season. Nae luck.

(The 19th and 20th games of the season were the 2-0 win against St Johnstone and the 2-1 win against Livi - so the first two games after midway).

Edited March 20, 2022 by capt_oats

[Allroy for Prez]

Aye, I meant league games.

Probably should’ve written that then. 
 

[capt_oats]

Just now, Allroy for Prez said:

Aye, I meant league games.

Probably should’ve written that then. 

Those were league games.

[ZX1886]

In that case, we’ll just have to go the entirety of 2022 without winning a league game.

[Allroy for Prez]

29 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Those were league games.

I also meant post split onwards which seems like the natural 2nd half to the season. 

Again, should’ve mentioned that!  

Edited March 20, 2022 by Allroy for Prez

['WellDel]

39 minutes ago, rowsdower said:

That's a stereotype and I don't believe it's true. There's more to captaincy than what happens on the pitch for 90ish minutes, and there's more to leadership than shouting and bawling at folk. Whether O'Donnell is good at those things is more for management and the players to decide.

Unless the captain starts deciding tactics and signing players, I think the shoutiness of SOD is the least of our issues. If we set up with our best team and do the basics right, then suddenly people won't care who the board/captain/media team/groundsman is.
 

I don't see it simply as stereotypical, they are basic qualities you need in a team. Neither is being a vocal leader only about 'shoutiness' and bawling at folk. It's about encouragement and motivation,  and garnering spirit during the 90mins to put everything into getting a result, as well as a boot up the arse when needed, so it is absolutely required. 

The presence of a Craigan or Hartley type at the back would 100% make a difference, as no matter who the manager picks week to week, the amount of goals we are conceding from slack defending, poor positioning and basic errors is brutal. In the middle (granted he wasn't a captain) the loss of Campbell has left a massive hole. His energy going box to box and snapping into tackles definitely drove others on to up their game. We don't have anyone remotely like these guys in the squad and we're much poorer and softer for it.

[Handsome_Devil]

I wouldn't be against a more visibly motivational captain or character in the team but I don't think it's the decisive factor atm. A Campbell running around or a Craigan shouting won't solve the problem of lining up with two in the middle of the park v St Johnstone's three, booting it long constantly to a strung out front three and so on.

Even in our rotten run we've equalised plenty, kept going to beat Morton, turned Aberdeen, stunned Rangers when we could have folded, gave it a right go against Hibs when the cause was lost etc. Even yesterday when we lost an injury-time winner we didn't just jog off the park, we manufactured a last half chance and forced Clark into another save.

All that suggests there is still some character in the team and the players haven't yet chucked it under GA which in the circumstances might not be totally unexpected...it's clear some of the players aren't of a level we'd like but there's literally not a fan outside the top three who wouldn't say that about their team. It all - nearly always right now - comes back to the manager going off on one.

[D-Fens Foster]

I wasn’t in the Alexander out camp until the Ross County game. That is one of the worst games of football i’ve ever seen. I was hoping we would respond to that performance but it’s getting worse.

The players clearly don’t like his style of football and it’s clear to us that are paying hard earned dosh tae watch this pish that it isn’t good enough. 
Hopefully the board do the right thing but I understand it will cost a few quid. The championship this or next year will be a lot more costly.

[Lukovic]

No matter what the questions are with this team I can assure people that Liam Grimshaw is not the answer

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I wouldn't be against a more visibly motivational captain or character in the team but I don't think it's the decisive factor atm. A Campbell running around or a Craigan shouting won't solve the problem of lining up with two in the middle of the park v St Johnstone's three, booting it long constantly to a strung out front three and so on.

Even in our rotten run we've equalised plenty, kept going to beat Morton, turned Aberdeen, stunned Rangers when we could have folded, gave it a right go against Hibs when the cause was lost etc. Even yesterday when we lost an injury-time winner we didn't just jog off the park, we manufactured a last half chance and forced Clark into another save.

All that suggests there is still some character in the team and the players haven't yet chucked it under GA which in the circumstances might not be totally unexpected...it's clear some of the players aren't of a level we'd like but there's literally not a fan outside the top three who wouldn't say that about their team. It all - nearly always right now - comes back to the manager going off on one.

Strong agree on this.

We've come back from a goal down to either take a point or win the tie in almost half of our last 14 games (6 - St Mirren (a), Morton (h), Aberdeen (h) x2, Rangers (a), Dundee (h))

As you say, coming back from 2 down at Ibrox isn't something that even our better teams of the past 20 odd years have done. So kudos for that.

Tbh, I'm not particularly 'Alexander Out', I like him enough, I think most of his signings have been decent, he's shown he can win games in this league and he got more out of Devante Cole than Robinson ever could and more out of Tony Watt than Robinson and Tam Courts combined - so as a manager has enough about him.

I'd like him to acknowledge that he's somehow managed to completely f**k it and fix it though.

Edited March 20, 2022 by capt_oats

[JamesP_81]

IMO we definitely have a group of players who are more than capable of getting us a comfortable top 6 finish with a touch of entertaining football to watch along the way . Alexander just seems to be doing everything possible to give them an uphill struggle every game. Play to no-one's strengths , constantly mix the team up , don't even try to change things untill it's far too late . Given the extra subs that are allowed now it's unforgivable to wait untill the 80th minute then making 1 sub.  

[Handsome_Devil]

7 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I'd him to acknowledge that he's somehow managed to completely f**k it and fix it though.

That was my preferred option too but there seems little doubt he's doubling down.

There's been enough games you think ok, surely now he'll get put on the carpet or the players will complain and yet time after time nothing changes.

And while the club might be minded not to risk a change when there's a chance things will turn round, I think - unless we have a totally unexpected end to the season - ST  numbers may make them reconsider.

[rowsdower]

We don't seem particularly unorganized, in that we look to be doing what the manager wants. Whether what he wants is right is up for debate. Motivation/spirit also don't seem to be an issue, as covered above, so maybe the captain(s) is doing a good job? I've also seen no evidence that players aren't communicating and organizing each other, so not sure how a "vocal" captain moves the needle. I don't think there's much more to our situation than shite tactics, and not enough in form players to mitigate them.

As far as depress-fest 2022 goes, I will love it if we finish 6th or above, and I enjoy any time we win, or even just score. Each person's idea of entertainment is different. Man City games bore the f**k out of me, as well as foreign derbies, but other folk love that stuff. I don't think Alexander should be here much longer, but I won't be chucking it if he's still here next season, being shite for periods is part of the deal, it makes the mediocre victories feel better, and you don't get good internet arguments about how great we're doing.

As an aside, Peter Hartley wasnt that good. He was excellent before his injury, but as slow as Ojala when he came back and found himself on the bench a fair bit. Could give some lessons on scoring from corners though.

[Kapowzer]

I said only a few months back that his resigning was the best piece of business of the January window (that included Tierney & Efford signing and Mugabi extending, Niernold seems to be another waste of a wage). It was based on remarkable numbers he posted in calendar year 2021. It was tempered that the football he oversaw was awful and we won ugly more often than I can ever remember. In 15 months I've enjoyed watching 4 games (Aberdeen Cup, Aberdeen Broony head rub, Hearts 2-0 and away to Hibs post spilt 2-0).

I was shooshed after the Dundee win in August and Ross County in September when I questioned what I saw and was advised to be happy with the three points. I knew as the season drew on we'd get found out. What I didn't expect was the haul from the second round of fixtures. However all it has shown me is one man held this team together and made it tick.

Now when I look back over the past 15 months I think to the other stuff outside the main footballing product on matchdays. Polworth put in a petulant display against Aberdeen and he's papped out to the weans. OK his stock on here dropped due to his subsequent social media fallout and Killie to Dunfermline suggests turning that round was forlorn. Declan was probably dealt with correctly, he reneged on a contract agreement and cost us money (that is a decision with hindsight that has turned out well). Tony seemed to go out his way to convey how he was happy to be away and how the training was better and more focused. Again, not the first time I've heard that first hand from elsewhere within the squad. Now our 3rd best performing player from the first half of the season has been a continued bench warmer with cameos here and there. Everything hints to another fallout there. He cited lack of the defensive side of his game, not something anyone questioned before Christmas.

However I temper all of that with what @capt_oats makes a valid point about Cole and Watt.

I recall during the league cup phase where we were shocking Dean got a bit of stick, @Onthefringes reminded a few people that players are instructed to fulfill a role or employ a tactic which deep down they may question and think doesn't make sense. They may also know that will not allow them to give the best account of themselves and will bring stick from the terraces ..... any of that seem prophetic in mid March? There's no doubt a number of players feel shackled by the instructions they've been given. That again with hindsight seems telling.

I'm not in the out bus yet. However this is the worst football I've ever witnessed, it's a total rudderless ship which seems odd writing that as he seems to rule with a rod of iron. Ibrox was a total "f**k it" and 99x out of a  100 would have ended 6-0 opposed to 2-2. I think there are some serious issues with his man management, he seems to have a knack of rubbing up people the wrong way and discontent resulting in his team pulling against him and now with him. I do think it needs some self reflection and a hands up moment.