Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, Comrie said:

Honestly surprised Ketts has done well for you (but pleased, he was a player and manager I always liked),

See when you had "co-managers", was it likely Kettlewell who called the shots or was it likely a genuine partnership between him and Ferguson?

Trying to find examples of previous "rookie" managers who started with top flight jobs, as interested to see if its common for blips (Robson, Naismith, MacLean all started well and faded, are they outliers or is it common?).

[bunglebonce]

1 hour ago, Dosser1886 said:

I guess like any one of us in our working life's you gain experience, learn from your mistakes and put that into practice when given another opportunity. Think the big thing has been him coming into the club at a fortunate time for us and being readiliy available to take over from Hammell when he had us in freefall. Kettlewell would at least have been aware of what we had, what the issues were and have enought managerial experience to know in his own mind how he might fix it rather than someone else coming in cold.

This is exactly it.

He took over at Ross County jointly with Steven Ferguson in February when the team was in freefall. They couldn't keep County up but there are other parallels, where there were encouraging signs. Kettlewell has taken the best of those points forward into his next job.

I will always maintain that Kettlewell was an excellent coach, even at his lowest point at County. His biggest mistake IMO was in being too ambitious too soon with the team's evolution at the start of the 20/21 season. They went from having backs-to-the-wall defending with Liam Fontaine and Callum Morris, to relying on inexperienced defenders playing out and squeezing high up the pitch. Coll Donaldson went from looking really quite good and an asset to the team next to a captain beside him, to the bombscare Donaldson we tend to think of when he needed to be the senior guy.

He also gambled on the full-backs he signed 2020 and that backfired, with them becoming injured. It meant using players out of position and then pulling Ross Stewart out to the flanks to protect the full-back. That had a knock-on effect with Stewart's form, which took a turn for the worse, not scoring from open play in four months before his sale to Sunderland. Kettlewell never got the chance to rectify that, being sacked days before the transfer window opened again.

Kettlewell is being more pragmatic with how his team evolves this time around. I'm curious to see how far he can go with this form.

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by bunglebonce

[bunglebonce]

23 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

See when you had "co-managers", was it likely Kettlewell who called the shots or was it likely a genuine partnership between him and Ferguson?

The rumours were it was Kettlewell who called the shots but there were never any obvious signs of that. They seemed to be joined to the hip. 

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, bunglebonce said:

Kettlewell is being more pragmatic with how his team evolves this time around. I'm curious to see how far he can go with this form.

This is something that's vaguely interested me tbh.

I'm pretty sure Kettlewell did an interview at the start of summer where he essentially said that <paraphrasing> the back 3 was a system that he'd never used before </paraphrasing>. It was more a statement of fact rather than any indication as to what his plans were going forward or anything.

With that in mind - you don't really have to look far to see managers who, in the same situation, would have used the summer to pivot to a shape/system that broadly speaking was their preference and make it about their "philosophy" or whatever.

It actually says a lot for him that Kettlewell has been savvy enough to essentially not look a gift horse in the mouth with a shape that has ended up working incredibly well but tweak it enough to account for the loss of players like Van Veen and Johnston.

Kelly; O'Donnell, McGinn, Mugabi/Butcher, Casey/Blaney; Slattery, Miller, Spittal were all at the Football Club last season and played while Kettlewell was digging us out a hole so in a sense, given the bulk of the starting XI is still here it'd have been mental to blow it up. To that end, the fundamentals of how we were playing in the Van Veen/Johnston version of the team are still there but there's been a subtle evolution too.

I also wonder how much having Frail to lean on has been beneficial for Kettlewell in terms of learning from past mistakes.

Either way, while we'll clearly revert to the mean soon enough, when you look at some of the goals we've scored so far this season (Sunday in particular) in a footballing sense it's been a long time since we've seen a Motherwell team with the passing, the movement, the tempo...

Edited September 7, 2023 by capt_oats

[Swello]

We've had a few managers over the years (and it is just a few) that kind of "fit" our club - and it feels at this early stage that Kettlewell *might* be one of them. Being able to understand what is actually possible with our budget and level of support is a rarer skill than you'd think.

There is a certain mindset (and I would argue that pragmatism is the dominant feature) required for managing a mid-table team in our league and I think it is different from managing perpetual underdogs as Martindale has done so well at Livi for example. There is a general level of expectation at our club (and I'm not for a minute saying this is 100% based in reality) where we will always be the plucky underdogs against the OF, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen - should be winning (at the very least) our share of games against  (2 or 3) peers  and should be favourites/winning against everyone else.

Where this matters is that managers (hello Graham Alexander!) that refuse to account for this and have a dogmatic view of "how the game should be played" aren't going to work out for us. Some managers have had us set up to be good against the better teams, some have had success with beating our peers and below but  Kettlewell so far has proven to be quite flexible and pragmatic and I think that is a positive sign.

I would also say that managers who have a good mid-table mindset can't always translate that when they are presented with much more budget and expected to win almost every week in a certain perceived style...

Edited September 7, 2023 by Swello

[ropy]

I’ve mentioned this before but I heard a Sportsound pundit talk about a car park chat with Kettlewell after recording a show on Radio Scotland.  Kettlewell had said that his time out the game had given him space to think and essentially reset how he would approach things if he got another job, he was talking about the running of the club (playing side) rather than a team formation.

His experience at County would be vital input to this but it is clear that he came into the Motherwell job with a vision.  Man management, game preparation, tactics and getting big defenders to throw themselves in front of balls would all be part of it.

[redstarcvedza]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

This is something that's vaguely interested me tbh.

I'm pretty sure Kettlewell did an interview at the start of summer where he essentially said that <paraphrasing> the back 3 was a system that he'd never used before </paraphrasing>. It was more a statement of fact rather than any indication as to what his plans were going forward or anything.

With that in mind - you don't really have to look far to see managers who, in the same situation, would have used the summer to pivot to a shape/system that broadly speaking was their preference and make it about their "philosophy" or whatever.

It actually says a lot for him that Kettlewell has been savvy enough to essentially not look a gift horse in the mouth with a shape that has ended up working incredibly well but tweak it enough to account for the loss of players like Van Veen and Johnston.

Kelly; O'Donnell, McGinn, Mugabi/Butcher, Casey/Blaney; Slattery, Miller, Spittal were all at the Football Club last season and played while Kettlewell was digging us out a hole so in a sense, given the bulk of the starting XI is still here it'd have been mental to blow it up. To that ende, the fundamentals of how we were playing in the Van Veen/Johnston version of the team are still there but there's been a subtle evolution too.

I also wonder how much having Frail to lean on has been beneficial for Kettlewell in terms of learning from past mistakes.

Either way, while we'll clearly revert to the mean soon enough, when you look at some of the goals we've scored so far this season (Sunday in particular) in a footballing sense it's been a long time since we've seen a Motherwell team with the passing, the movement, the tempo...

On the back of the Hearts game I'm not sure we need another forward on the pitch. Forget Peps false nine. Motherwell now have Ketts double ten. In my view a confident quick minded technician should always get the better of the brawny athlete. in Spittal and Slattery we are blessed with two such players who wreaked havoc at the weekend as they were on the same wavelength. Dare I say it but they showed the kernels of the telepathic understand of Cooper and Russell. Long may it continue...

[CoF]

1 hour ago, ropy said:

I’ve mentioned this before but I heard a Sportsound pundit talk about a car park chat with Kettlewell after recording a show on Radio Scotland.  Kettlewell had said that his time out the game had given him space to think and essentially reset how he would approach things if he got another job, he was talking about the running of the club (playing side) rather than a team formation.

His experience at County would be vital input to this but it is clear that he came into the Motherwell job with a vision.  Man management, game preparation, tactics and getting big defenders to throw themselves in front of balls would all be part of it.

Pretty sure it would be the same interview I was thinking of. At the time I wondered if he’s going to be one of these guys whose managerial career drifted into the wilderness or he’d end up carving out a career in the media but fair enough, he’s stayed true to his word, used his time out wisely and came back into the game in even better shape. 

[Swello]

1 hour ago, CoF said:

Pretty sure it would be the same interview I was thinking of. At the time I wondered if he’s going to be one of these guys whose managerial career drifted into the wilderness or he’d end up carving out a career in the media but fair enough, he’s stayed true to his word, used his time out wisely and came back into the game in even better shape. 

This is undoubtably true - but it may also have been that the managerial setup at County (dual managers and then best mate as boss for final few months) was just a really shite idea. Maybe the traditional setup he is now part of is a better use of his skills.

[capt_oats]

Old news but this was the first mention I'd seen of what the injury actually is (back).

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I think Kettlewell spoke a bit more about the dual manager stuff in his Open Goal interview. Can't really remember any specifics though.

[Guest]

Who needs a keeper when you've got MOTM trim Mugabe throwing himself at everything?

[MurrayWell]

55 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Old news but this was the first mention I'd seen of what the injury actually is (back).

Top of the league with the Ox and the Bear... what a time. 

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I think Kettlewell spoke a bit more about the dual manager stuff in his Open Goal interview. Can't really remember any specifics though.

Speaking of interviews I rarely listen to Sportsound but notice he had a short(ish) interview on Monday which is included in their podcast.

He was asked about Slattery and he alludes to what I think most of us suspected was the case in so much as the unpleasantness along with his entirely shite time in terms of his personal circumstances had a negative impact on him last season and pointed out that he seems to be in a much better place now - which is good to hear tbh.

Ketts appears around 5mins 50s.

Edited September 7, 2023 by capt_oats

[Busta Nut]

I'd like him to forever score against Killie, that guy was ragin.

[eliphas]

I know he doesn't really fit into the system but what is the script with Stuart McKinstry? Am I right in saying even with being a free agent that any club who take him on still owe Leeds and us development fees?

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

10 minutes ago, eliphas said:

I know he doesn't really fit into the system but what is the script with Stuart McKinstry? Am I right in saying even with being a free agent that any club who take him on still owe Leeds and us development fees?

I don't think so, because Leeds released him. To be entitled to compensation, I believe you have to offer the player a new deal on at least the same terms that they are currently on.

['WellDel]

30 minutes ago, eliphas said:

I know he doesn't really fit into the system but what is the script with Stuart McKinstry? Am I right in saying even with being a free agent that any club who take him on still owe Leeds and us development fees?

 

24 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I don't think so, because Leeds released him. To be entitled to compensation, I believe you have to offer the player a new deal on at least the same terms that they are currently on.

I know circumstances and formations etc. seriously restricted his playing time last season, but the boy is undoubtedly a very good footballer. I don't know what his limits and expectations are in terms of the lowest level he wants to go to at this point, but find it quite mental that there's been no real talk or rumours of anyone at all trying to sign him, especially when there's no fee involved. Hopefully he gets sorted out soon as he's too good a talent to be sitting idle.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I know the homesickness stuff was quite widely publicised when he came back, dunno if that could still be putting clubs off/causing him to turn down offers. I thought he was a decent player, maybe a bit overhyped at times, but I'd definitely expect him to get another deal in the top flight if not at us, or a top-end Championship team at the very worst.

[djchapsticks]

53 minutes ago, eliphas said:

I know he doesn't really fit into the system but what is the script with Stuart McKinstry? Am I right in saying even with being a free agent that any club who take him on still owe Leeds and us development fees?

I was just talking about him the other day. Can't believe there's not a slew of clubs on both sides of the border sniffing about, particularly as there is no compensation involved due to Leeds releasing him.