Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, Swello said:

I know "experienced keeper" is almost a meme by this point - but would there not be some merit in doing what we've done really successfully for every other position and go and mine English academies for someone who is highly promising but needs real games? I know there is an obvious risk involved in that - but I don't see that it would be any worse than getting someone well past their prime and on their way down.

If the big book of rules says that you must have an experienced keeper - get someone like that in as backup to help them along and be able to step in if they need taking out the firing line. 

I think this is almost an easy time to replace our Keeper, it's not Randolph/Ruddy/Gillespie/Sieb we are replacing here after all...it feels like after what we've watched this season,  the only way is up unless we really make an arse of it.

Agree with all of this.

As a rule it also feels more sensible to have an experienced back-up as opposed to a younger 'keeper that isn't trusted.

Prior to Kelly/Fox (who, ended up never actually playing a game for us) the most recent example of that dynamic was when we had Ripley on loan from Boro and the very weird Samson/Twardzik situation in the background where Samson left Killie because he didn't want to be second choice and signed for us where he was...second choice (and didn't actually get on the park until a post-split dead rubber against Hearts at the end of April having signed the previous September).

Having Gillespie and Carson on the books at the same time was a) unintended and b) closer to having 2 #1s.

I know we have a GK coach in Alexander but looking at things in a broad sense I kind of go back to Kettlewell talking about us being understaffed when he took the job. Since then Archibald's been in then away to Killie, Foster's been promoted etc it may be the case that we haven't announced any additions but it doesn't really feel like we've added to the staff.

I mean, Clarkson's still in the dug out on a Saturday which AFAIK Hammell never was.

You could argue that having an experienced back-up offers value in a non-playing sense that, respectfully, you probably don't get from having Oxborough taking up the second choice spot (on our 2nd highest wage ).

I know Halliday's been getting it tight recently however if the idea is to bring in a few more of these types of players to help with the 'culture' around the club then I'd not be against it. Assuming that's the purpose rather than any great expectation that they'd be rolling back the years. It feels relevant given, as has been pointed out at regular points over the season, Kettlewell is still a young manager - he's 39 (until he's 40).

[thisGRAEME]

I'd be fine with Scott Bain, tbh.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Glad something is funny 

Edited May 7 by YassinMoutaouakil

[Swello]

5 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Glad something is funny 

They're laughing as he pulled his hamstring reaching for a vol-au-vent

[Archie McSquackle]

I know there shouldn't be a type but have you ever seen anyone who looks less likely to be a footballer than Harry Paton?

[Handsome_Devil]

45 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I know Halliday's been getting it tight recently however if the idea is to bring in a few more of these types of players to help with the 'culture' around the club then I'd not be against it. Assuming that's the purpose rather than any great expectation that they'd be rolling back the years. It feels relevant given, as has been pointed out at regular points over the season, Kettlewell is still a young manager - he's 39 (until he's 40).

My view on Halliday when he signed was he'll do and that's still the case.

We're never going to have eleven players on the up that we like, much less a squad of 20+ and by definition of you want experience, you sacrifice performance - because if a player is high on both we couldn't afford them.

Halliday looked fine when he started relative to playing 10 seconds all season. Is it possible that his legs are gone at 31 and after 100s of games, including some biggies, for Rangers and Hearts, he can't do any kind of job for us for 18 months? Sure. But more plausible is we rushed him back because with Paton and Slattery out we had no choice.

He won't be great by any means next season but he'll be solid enough playing parts of 25-30 games before we say thanks and move on. Not everyone we have will be a star, and that's fine.

I agree completely about the culture thing...as fans we lament the constant change every year, two years at the most. Ok, but the guys we can build a longer relationship with are by definition those who don't get offered more by Hearts etc. 

[well fan for life]

1 hour ago, Archie McSquackle said:

I know there shouldn't be a type but have you ever seen anyone who looks less likely to be a footballer than Harry Paton?

Always think he looks like he's just woken up. Plays like it quite often too.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Archie McSquackle said:

I know there shouldn't be a type but have you ever seen anyone who looks less likely to be a footballer than Harry Paton?

I mean, I know he's not been away that long but come on.

[eliphas]

1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said:

I'd be fine with Scott Bain, tbh.

Incorrect. Try again please. 

[ropy]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

My view on Halliday when he signed was he'll do and that's still the case.

We're never going to have eleven players on the up that we like, much less a squad of 20+ and by definition of you want experience, you sacrifice performance - because if a player is high on both we couldn't afford them.

Halliday looked fine when he started relative to playing 10 seconds all season. Is it possible that his legs are gone at 31 and after 100s of games, including some biggies, for Rangers and Hearts, he can't do any kind of job for us for 18 months? Sure. But more plausible is we rushed him back because with Paton and Slattery out we had no choice.

He won't be great by any means next season but he'll be solid enough playing parts of 25-30 games before we say thanks and move on. Not everyone we have will be a star, and that's fine.

I agree completely about the culture thing...as fans we lament the constant change every year, two years at the most. Ok, but the guys we can build a longer relationship with are by definition those who don't get offered more by Hearts etc. 

on the assumption that he will be better after a pre-season he is the type of guy you can throw on to see out a game, no creativity for us but may nullify an opposition, can probably fill in for 20 minutes in many positions including full back, has stories to tell in the dressing room, might be able to drive the minibus for the youth team etc.

[ropy]

3 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

We tried various combinations in pre-season and the LC group and from that I confidently declared McGinn the only viable candidate to replace Butcher in the middle.

Wrong, obviously, and you could at least see the theory in what we were trying instead.

However, how we didn't go back to what long looked the simple solution until April having shuffled through every other combination (or so it seemed) was definitely odd.

He tried various combinations in most games until recently.

[Stevie Kirk]

On the Halliday chat he played very well the night we routed Ross County at home . He still has a good touch and is able to recycle the ball well but at times gets caught on his heels - I think he is lacking that half yard  that you get with match fitness and he may be able  to get that back with a good pre season. Far far too early to be writing him off IMO.

On the Kelly chat there is no denying he has made a few of real howlers. St Johnstone at home when he staggered off his line into no man’s land, Morton in the cup and more recently the corner up at Dens. However to say he has been sh*t all season is very harsh.

His style of keeping is a line dweller, he’s never going to be Sieb Dykstra . Our problem in defence all season is making decisive first contact on the ball when crosses come in. I think we could bring in a very dominant centre half and Kelly would be fine behind him but if we don’t or can’t get that sort of player then we do need a keeper with more physicality as the blend at the moment is all wrong. 

[eliphas]

14 minutes ago, Stevie Kirk said:

His style of keeping is a line dweller, he’s never going to be Sieb Dykstra . Our problem in defence all season is making decisive first contact on the ball when crosses come in. I think we could bring in a very dominant centre half and Kelly would be fine behind him but if we don’t or can’t get that sort of player then we do need a keeper with more physicality as the blend at the moment is all wrong. 

Nailed it for me

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Halliday hasn't had the chance to build any momentum since he joined us. Any player we sign in January is likely to be short on match fitness, form or both and building those up without picking up knocks along the way. It was unfortunate his came during a game in which he was playing very well. Coming off the bench and aggravating it against Morton was clearly a bad move, but I can see why he tried to push himself. Let's see how he is after pre season. It's not a position I expect us to strengthen unless we sell Miller, as I can see Slattery signing at least a short term deal.

[D-Fens Foster]

Seen the BBC gossip column today about Miller. What do we think is a realistic fee for him ? I think if we get offered anything near 1.5 million we will sell. One of my mates reckons it would need tae be over the Turnbull fee but I can’t see that happening 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

5 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

We tried various combinations in pre-season and the LC group and from that I confidently declared McGinn the only viable candidate to replace Butcher in the middle.

Wrong, obviously, and you could at least see the theory in what we were trying instead.

However, how we didn't go back to what long looked the simple solution until April having shuffled through every other combination (or so it seemed) was definitely odd.

It seemed like we were trying to play the same way as last season, having lost our organiser and quick wing backs, without like-for-like replacements.

I think he's a manager who operates best when the shape, personnel and positions of his team are obvious. The more options he has, the worse it tends to get.

[capt_oats]

2 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

It's not a position I expect us to strengthen unless we sell Miller, as I can see Slattery signing at least a short term deal.

On that point here's the breakdown of contracted players by position vs expiries and as you say, midfield is the one area we have bodies:

Contracted
GK: N/A
DF: Casey, Blaney
MF: Halliday, Paton, Zdravkovski, Miller, Tierney, Wells
FW: Bair, Ebiye, Ross

Total: 11

Expiring (incl loans expriring)
GK: Kelly, Oxborough
DF: O'Donnell, Gent (loan), Mugabi, McGinn, Devine (loan), Montgomery (loan), Elliot, Butcher
MF: Maguire, Spittal, Slattery
FW: Obika, Shaw (loan), Nicholson, Vale (loan)

Total: 17

[Handsome_Devil]

15 minutes ago, D-Fens Foster said:

Seen the BBC gossip column today about Miller. What do we think is a realistic fee for him ? I think if we get offered anything near 1.5 million we will sell. One of my mates reckons it would need tae be over the Turnbull fee but I can’t see that happening 

I think it'd need to be well over £2m, if not approaching Turnbull money, to make us sell this summer.

Put it this way, if there's normal development and he has an injury free 24/25, you'd be confident of at least £1.5m even with 12 months less on his deal, so we shouldn't be considering it now.

I'd be pitching him the everyone's a winner contract extension every day mind.

[capt_oats]

1 minute ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I think it'd need to be well over £2m, if not approaching Turnbull money, to make us sell this summer.

Put it this way, if there's normal development and he has an injury free 24/25, you'd be confident of at least £1.5m even with 12 months less on his deal, so we shouldn't be considering it now.

I'd be pitching him the everyone's a winner contract extension every day mind.

Tbh, the vibe from the AGM (and also the January videos where McMahon was saying the quiet bits loud) was that we view Miller on par with Turnbull in terms of value.

Essentially we're viewing him as the deal to "de-risk" the club for future seasons.

[Busta Nut]

Yer only worth what someone is willing to pay. That's the issue.