The Master Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 6 hours ago, Lionsof67 said: your team qualified for europe thanks to a scottish cup final appearance, if you were to replicate that this season you'd be guaranteed European group stage football next season They’d need to go one step further and win the Scottish Cup for that to happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 On 29/10/2022 at 02:51, Lionsof67 said: your team qualified for europe thanks to a scottish cup final appearance, if you were to replicate that this season you'd be guaranteed European group stage football next season just like Hearts this year, so its very much "we", keeping that top 10 spot is beneficial to every club in scotland who dream of a european run. On 29/10/2022 at 09:32, The Master said: They’d need to go one step further and win the Scottish Cup for that to happen. Aye, they (rightly imo) changed this a while back now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 1 hour ago, VincentGuerin said: Aye, they (rightly imo) changed this a while back now. Why "rightly"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Why "rightly"? Because I don't really see why being runners-up in a cup should get you the European place. If you win it, fair enough. If not, then I think a team that has consistently performed in the league should get the place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 Just now, VincentGuerin said: Because I don't really see why being runners-up in a cup should get you the European place. If you win it, fair enough. If not, then I think a team that has consistently performed in the league should get the place. Yes, let's not vary things at all. Even though, historically, cups for a long time provided European qualifiers, let's do away with that now that league football is so much more predictable. Let's instead embrace the devaluing of domestic cups. Let's snuff out even the slim chance of an unlikelier outfit making it once in a while. Let's revert back to the 'meritocracy' that most closely reflects wealth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 4 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Yes, let's not vary things at all. Even though, historically, cups for a long time provided European qualifiers, let's do away with that now that league football is so much more predictable. Let's instead embrace the devaluing of domestic cups. Let's snuff out even the slim chance of an unlikelier outfit making it once in a while. Let's revert back to the 'meritocracy' that most closely reflects wealth. It's not snuffing anything out. It's just about drawing a line somewhere. I don't really see why any team should go into a cup final with a European place guaranteed just because of who they are playing in the final. Let's take Queens this season. Let's say they get to the cup final this season. Why should it matter in terms of a European place (pre-kick-off) whether they're playing Rangers or Ross County? Win the cup, you go to Europe. I don't see what's unfair about that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: It's not snuffing anything out. It's just about drawing a line somewhere. I don't really see why any team should go into a cup final with a European place guaranteed just because of who they are playing in the final. Let's take Queens this season. Let's say they get to the cup final this season. Why should it matter in terms of a European place (pre-kick-off) whether they're playing Rangers or Ross County? Win the cup, you go to Europe. I don't see what's unfair about that. Did you think the same back in the Cup Winners' Cup days when it happened all the time? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Did you think the same back in the Cup Winners' Cup days when it happened all the time? I don't see how the CWC could have operated without the presence of runners-up. I mean, there's no other way. I understand that was incorporated into the UEFA Cup, then Europa League, now something floating between the two. But things have moved on to such an extent that I don't really see the CWC as relevant in the discussion. Ideally, I'd have both cups offering a European place. But it seems that's not allowed now. We're not going to agree. I just think with the nature of cup competitions being what they are, and with the CWC having floated into the past, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a team has to win the cup to get the place. I mean, a team has no control over who they play in the final. So, why should they be rewarded for things totally outwith their control? It's also in the spirit of the game. A cup is basically a binary thing. You win it or you don't. I don't see why not winning it should carry a reward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennie makevin Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 That was only when the cup winners had also won the league so went into the Champions Cup. As was the case in 1971 when Celtic won the double and Rangers as beaten cup finalists went in the CWC, which they won. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 34 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: I don't see how the CWC could have operated without the presence of runners-up. I mean, there's no other way. I understand that was incorporated into the UEFA Cup, then Europa League, now something floating between the two. But things have moved on to such an extent that I don't really see the CWC as relevant in the discussion. Ideally, I'd have both cups offering a European place. But it seems that's not allowed now. We're not going to agree. I just think with the nature of cup competitions being what they are, and with the CWC having floated into the past, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a team has to win the cup to get the place. I mean, a team has no control over who they play in the final. So, why should they be rewarded for things totally outwith their control? It's also in the spirit of the game. A cup is basically a binary thing. You win it or you don't. I don't see why not winning it should carry a reward. You get medals for finishing second in a Cup. In that respect, it's less 'binary' than a league competition. I think it's really regrettable how Cups have been devalued. In this regard ours has actually suffered less than the FA Cup which has been hideously diminished. I think the changes to European competitions have contributed hugely to this. It's doubly unfair if the main Cups don't now provide a qualifier at all. We don't need it all to be further predetermined. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 38 minutes ago, kennie makevin said: That was only when the cup winners had also won the league so went into the Champions Cup. As was the case in 1971 when Celtic won the double and Rangers as beaten cup finalists went in the CWC, which they won. Indeed. Doubles in Scotland aren't exactly rare, so it happened often. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: You get medals for finishing second in a Cup. In that respect, it's less 'binary' than a league competition. I think it's really regrettable how Cups have been devalued. In this regard ours has actually suffered less than the FA Cup which has been hideously diminished. I think the changes to European competitions have contributed hugely to this. It's doubly unfair if the main Cups don't now provide a qualifier at all. We don't need it all to be further predetermined. I think the Scottish Cup and (once into the knock-out stages) our League Cup are both doing better than most cup competitions. I can't imagine Hearts going into a cup last sixteen or quarter-final and putting the weans out, unless it was a home gimmie against a League Two team or something. The cups still matter in Scotland, and that's a great thing. But that doesn't mean we need to reward some runners-up with a place in Europe. Pumped by Celtic in the final, enjoy Europe. Pumped by Dunfermline in the final, sorry, nae luck. I don't see any justification for that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: I think the Scottish Cup and (once into the knock-out stages) our League Cup are both doing better than most cup competitions. I can't imagine Hearts going into a cup last sixteen or quarter-final and putting the weans out, unless it was a home gimmie against a League Two team or something. The cups still matter in Scotland, and that's a great thing. But that doesn't mean we need to reward some runners-up with a place in Europe. Pumped by Celtic in the final, enjoy Europe. Pumped by Dunfermline in the final, sorry, nae luck. I don't see any justification for that. Fair enough. As you say, we'll not agree on this. I think the reality in our game is then, that our Cup will most often not yield a European qualifier. That's a pity if you ask me, but I know that's a minority view on here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 4 hours ago, VincentGuerin said: Aye, they (rightly imo) changed this a while back now. When was that changed I had understood that being runner up to a champions league qualifier got you the worst of the Euro slots so if we’d lost that semi to hibs they’d have had Motherwell’s spot if they lost the final but would have been able to take our Europa league playoff spot if they won the final But I’ve been wrong before 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: When was that changed I had understood that being runner up to a champions league qualifier got you the worst of the Euro slots so if we’d lost that semi to hibs they’d have had Motherwell’s spot if they lost the final but would have been able to take our Europa league playoff spot if they won the final But I’ve been wrong before Since 2014, it seems. https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/0257-0def7f60e195-fd6dc0500321-1000--new-approach-broadens-europa-league-appeal/ • Performances in domestic leagues will be rewarded. If a national cup winner has booked a UEFA Champions League spot, the highest-ranked club in their domestic league not already qualified for the UEFA Europa League will qualify for the competition; national cup runners-up no longer qualify. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 12 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said: Indeed. Doubles in Scotland aren't exactly rare. Happens to the big boys all the time mate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 Scotland's performance has them the 27th best nation in Europe this year. Even with Rangers getting to a European final (could be considered very unexpected) and Celtic actually picking up some good group points last year we only managed 11th. No way will Scotland hold on to a top 10 place over the next few seasons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 6 hours ago, tree house tam said: Happens to the big boys all the time mate. I had League and Cup doubles in mind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number seven Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 Thank goodness the participation of Scottish teams in European competitions is over after another defeat for Hearts today. Only Rangers win in Eindhoven worth anything of note . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranaldo Bairn Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Number seven said: Thank goodness the participation of Scottish teams in European competitions is over after another defeat for Hearts today. Only Rangers win in Eindhoven worth anything of note . Honourable mention for DU beating Alkmaar at home. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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