Gordon Strachan

[Officer Barbrady]

Cue a barrage of slaggings towards McManus' career in defence of the Establishment Viewpoint. Excellently put across.

[theoriginalhedge]

37 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Have we ever had a manager who wasn't slated while they were in charge? Craig Brown probably had the best of the popular vote in my lifetime, and there were still lots of folk who thought he was pish. I'm too young to really remember Big Jock's time - did he have a good backing as Scotland boss before he died?

He didn't really have that long in the job but you could see things happening.  He liked attacking football and no one really complained.  Mind you the managers then weren't subjected to the same media and internet scrutiny as they are now.   I would say it is much harder to succeed these days as everyone has the chance of an opinion. If that opinion is strong enough then the siege mentality sets in and the manager is on a hiding to nothing.  

I am and have been as guilty as anyone of putting my tuppence worth in,  just out of frustration I suppose .   I kind of feel bad about it now . 

[pandarilla]

Again I agree with much of this, but I actually think that you're guiltier than most of simplifying things.

You seem to think that criticism of the manager equates to seeing that position as the sole issue, when I don't think many of Strachan's critics see it that way at all.   

Again, you call for a wunderkind, or a solid batch, yet we continually achieve less than nations with neither.

 Remember too, that plenty on here have not recently boarded any bandwagon, but instead warned of what would probably result if we didn't change things a year ago.

It's good that you post on here because it provides debate.  I still don't really get why you're supportive of Strachan though.

Genuine question: Were you opposed to the sackings of Burley and Levein?

I think I gave up on Burley quite quickly, because he clearly lacked the strength to control the players. The whole Ferguson/mcgregor drunken two's up nonsense was embarrassing but it showed that the team had no respect for him.

I think I stuck with levein pretty much up to the point that he went, or a game or two before.

I guess I like to give a manager time to turn things around. International football is so harsh due to the lack of games, and every goal, save, missed chance, controversial decision is magnified as a result.

I also put a lot into the obvious point that goals change games in a huge way, and the poor b*****d in the dugout is so much at the mercy of the sporting gods.

Mccleish vs Georgia at home (I think, might've been someone else). We got an early goal and looked fairly comfortable but then they equalised. Cue a nervous hampden, team start to panic a bit and in the dying minutes craig beattie scores the winner. Jubilation, momentum, great substitution.

Levein v Norway at home. Needing a winner we send on iwelumo and Fletcher and they turned the game - both of them. We suddenly looked more physical, held it up well, got in behind them, and then the deserved late goal comes...except it didn't.

That shit would f**k me up in the head if I was directly involved. If my job was on the line, my career, my reputation.

[Gordopolis]

I think I gave up on Burley quite quickly, because he clearly lacked the strength to control the players. The whole Ferguson/mcgregor drunken two's up nonsense was embarrassing but it showed that the team had no respect for him.

I think I stuck with levein pretty much up to the point that he went, or a game or two before.

Same here with both. You might want to rephrase Ferguson and McGregor's "two's up" tho

[pandarilla]

Same here with both. You might want to rephrase Ferguson and McGregor's "two's up" tho [emoji4]

Ha.

I was trying to describe what it was and nothing came to mind quickly.

[Dons_1988]

I think it's a bit of a red herring going down certain routes of 'such and such a manager did well at X team but shite at scotland' therefore it's scotlands fault.

Half of management is fortune (for the majority, not all). A 'successful' manager has most likely built a reputation on the back of taking on a team that for whatever reason was the right circumstances at the right time. The right group of players to play his style of football and possibly coincide with the demise of rival teams. Clearly this manager would have talent but many factors need to be apparent for everything to 'click'.

For example, pep guardiola is clearly a wonderful coach that can turn good teams into something special. However, had he not got his break at Barcelona and taken on say stoke. Would he be able to implement that terrific style of football? Maybe to an extent but I suspect success would be limited.

My point being strachan is clearly not a useless manager, his cv has clear successes on it. But the circumstances surrounding the Scotland job clearly do not fit with what he's trying to do. This group of players can't effectively implement his style so he's fucked. He won't change the squad or tactics so the only option is to pick a manager who can get the most out of the group.

As said before, get someone in who first and foremost gets us incredibly difficult to beat then the rest will follow.

As I say, I don't hate WGS, I don't think he's incompetent, I just think he's run his course and is out of ideas. Change is absolutely necessary.

[Officer Barbrady]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

 

I think I gave up on Burley quite quickly, because he clearly lacked the strength to control the players. The whole Ferguson/mcgregor drunken two's up nonsense was embarrassing but it showed that the team had no respect for him.

I think I stuck with levein pretty much up to the point that he went, or a game or two before.

I guess I like to give a manager time to turn things around. International football is so harsh due to the lack of games, and every goal, save, missed chance, controversial decision is magnified as a result.

I also put a lot into the obvious point that goals change games in a huge way, and the poor b*****d in the dugout is so much at the mercy of the sporting gods.

Mccleish vs Georgia at home (I think, might've been someone else). We got an early goal and looked fairly comfortable but then they equalised. Cue a nervous hampden, team start to panic a bit and in the dying minutes craig beattie scores the winner. Jubilation, momentum, great substitution.

Levein v Norway at home. Needing a winner we send on iwelumo and Fletcher and they turned the game - both of them. We suddenly looked more physical, held it up well, got in behind them, and then the deserved late goal comes...except it didn't.

That shit would f**k me up in the head if I was directly involved. If my job was on the line, my career, my reputation.


 

 

Except it was Burley's home game v Norway.....

 

Fair enough. But there was a lot of extra-cirricular nonsense surrounding things even at that point. That said, Iwelumo's miss fucked with my head because i was involved, as a supporter.....there are things you literally just cannot account for, and that was one of them. Could be he just didn't fancy a clattering from the last man, or couldn't believe his luck at landing an open goal....such an opening creates its own tension. When working to instruction, ie set piece or breakaway move, your brain does the work for you. When relying on instinct, well i'm afraid i was in the baying mob wondering why it wasn't Boyd in that box. And i always will be.....that incident proves we can not afford even a single slip up, anywhere. It's hard enough to qualify as it is (or was) without shutting players out. 

[Ira Gaines]

Bringing up other teams in any case is completely irrelevant anyways. He's made glaring errors as Scotland manager which is where he's being judged. I couldn't give a f**k what he's done and hasn't done elsewhere. He's now a repeat failure with Scotland, and has yet again kept his job regardless. I can't see any way that this is acceptable.

 

[Monkey Tennis]

8 hours ago, theoriginalhedge said:

He didn't really have that long in the job but you could see things happening.  

Jock Stein was manager for six years wasn't he?

[Monkey Tennis]

6 hours ago, Officer Barbrady said:

Except it was Burley's home game v Norway.....

Indeed, but Panda had maybe given up on him by that point.

[Monkey Tennis]

4 hours ago, Randy Giles said:

I couldn't give a f**k what he's done and hasn't done elsewhere. 

 

The fact is though that even a defence of Strachan which is reliant on highlighting his managerial success elsewhere, has to be selective.  

He was the man who finally took Coventry down after over three unbroken top flight decades.

He was also dreadful at Middlesbrough, his last position before Hampden. 

The fact is that he arrived with a mixed record and will depart - some day surely - with a much worse one.

[ICTJohnboy]

4 hours ago, Randy Giles said:

Bringing up other teams in any case is completely irrelevant anyways. He's made glaring errors as Scotland manager which is where he's being judged. I couldn't give a f**k what he's done and hasn't done elsewhere. He's now a repeat failure with Scotland, and has yet again kept his job regardless. I can't see any way that this is acceptable.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

The fact is though that even a defence of Strachan which is reliant on highlighting his managerial success elsewhere, has to be selective.  

He was the man who finally took Coventry down after over three unbroken top flight decades.

He was also dreadful at Middlesbrough, his last position before Hampden. 

The fact is that he arrived with a mixed record and will depart - some day surely - with a much worse one.

^ Totally agree.

Good article here from Tom English :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38021627

[pandarilla]

Anyone seen that Tom English article?

[pandarilla]

Bringing up other teams in any case is completely irrelevant anyways. He's made glaring errors as Scotland manager which is where he's being judged. I couldn't give a f**k what he's done and hasn't done elsewhere. He's now a repeat failure with Scotland, and has yet again kept his job regardless. I can't see any way that this is acceptable.

 

We were discussing the effect that a manager has, so in that sense it was relevant.

The rest of your post can't really be argued with.

[theoriginalhedge]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Jock Stein was manager for six years wasn't he?

Forgive me. This was around the time I discovered alcohol and women  !     I didn't realise it was that long. I forgot he took over from Ally McLeod in 78 . I thought there was someone in between .  

[Bearwithme]

I was young at the time but I seem to remember there were complaints about Stein. One was about alleged negative football. Then of course there were complaints about players being left out. Though when you consider that one of those who was often omitted was Alan Hansen it was a rather different situation from the present one.

[theoriginalhedge]

27 minutes ago, Bearwithme said:

I was young at the time but I seem to remember there were complaints about Stein. One was about alleged negative football. Then of course there were complaints about players being left out. Though when you consider that one of those who was often omitted was Alan Hansen it was a rather different situation from the present one.

Ah yes I recall the Hansen thing.  Was that not instigated by himself ?  Leading to his career in punditry ? 

[Bearwithme]

All I recall is that Hansen was a terrific footballer but Stein often went with the excellent club partnership of McLeish and Miller. It was a genuine dilemma. I reckon there were other complaints about selection but that was the one that sprung immediately to mind.

Of course any one of Hansen, McLeish or Miller compared to the present centre-backs is very much a Rolls Royce/Lada situation.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, theoriginalhedge said:

Forgive me. This was around the time I discovered alcohol and women  !     I didn't realise it was that long. I forgot he took over from Ally McLeod in 78 . I thought there was someone in between .  

Yes, it was probably nearer seven years.  McLeod didn't go immediately after the 78 World Cup but it wasn't much later.  He did oversee another game or two in the following season, but I'm still not sure if he made it into 1979, or if it was still 1978 when Stein took over.

[Malcolm Malcolm]

4 hours ago, Bearwithme said:

All I recall is that Hansen was a terrific footballer but Stein often went with the excellent club partnership of McLeish and Miller. It was a genuine dilemma. I reckon there were other complaints about selection but that was the one that sprung immediately to mind.

Of course any one of Hansen, McLeish or Miller compared to the present centre-backs is very much a Rolls Royce/Lada situation.

Were there not question marks about Hansen's commitment? I seem to remember Alex Ferguson saying something about this.