Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[welshbairn]

5 minutes ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

Labour were prepared to vote it down.

Nonsense, they'd run out of excuses to bottle it again, Corbyn was champing at the bit.

[Terry_Tibbs]

8 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Nonsense, they'd run out of excuses to bottle it again, Corbyn was champing at the bit.

You underestimate his stubbornness.

[Baxter Parp]

If we leave the union we'll see that plummet.
It's also the debt to GDP ratio which is most important.

If we stay in the union our gdp will plummet. How stupid do you have to be to expect anything but corruption, incompetence and fiscal disaster from Westminster? It's proven time and time again that it cannot govern Scotland competently.

[Terry_Tibbs]

4 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

22 minutes ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

If we leave the union we'll see that plummet.
It's also the debt to GDP ratio which is most important.

If we stay in the union our gdp will plummet. How stupid do you have to be to expect anything but corruption, incompetence and fiscal disaster from Westminster? It's proven time and time again that it cannot govern Scotland competently.

Yet the SNP are doing a great job. Declining public services, falling behind in international league tables, scandals that would have put John Major's government to shame.

[Rodhull]

17 minutes ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

Yet the SNP are doing a great job. Declining public services, falling behind in international league tables, scandals that would have put John Major's government to shame.

Thank goodness the current Tory government has proven to be scandal free.

[Big Rider]

24 minutes ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

Yet Boris Johnson’s government  are doing a great job. Declining public services, falling behind in international league tables, scandals that would have put John Major's government to shame.

 

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

What a joke. You clearly struggle with reading comprehension.

Where have i endorsed the Tory government? I have already disproved that opposing scottish independence (at the moment) does not make one a supporter of the current government.

Oh and it's undeniably true that the SNP conspired with the Lib Dems to vote for the election the Tories wanted. Labour were prepared to vote it down. With SNP and Liberal support the Tories were going to get their damaging hard Brexit and SNP lapdogs like yourself nodded along approvingly.

Your rush to defend Johnson was a bit of a giveaway. Your continued support of UK rule in the teeth of Brexit, which you’ve evidently embraced and accepted, confirms it. Brexit is not temporary and is not simply part of the “current government”; it’s economic suicide that you’re desperate to ensure Scotland suffers purely so it can continue racking up a share of eye-watering UK debt, and continue falling deeper into the miserable picture you’ve already painted (but apparently like) of a failing dependent Scotland.

Incidentally, blame for Scotland suffering a “damaging hard Brexit” lies squarely with you and your fellow “dependence at any cost” BritNats. Absolutely no one with a lick of reality thinks either the SNP or laughable Lib Dems are to blame for the unleashed racism and xenophobia of your UK nationalism. 

[Terry_Tibbs]

12 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Your rush to defend Johnson was a bit of a giveaway. Your continued support of UK rule in the teeth of Brexit, which you’ve evidently embraced and accepted, confirms it. Brexit is not temporary and is not simply part of the “current government”; it’s economic suicide that you’re desperate to ensure Scotland suffers purely so it can continue racking up a share of eye-watering UK debt, and continue falling deeper into the miserable picture you’ve already painted (but apparently like) of a failing dependent Scotland.

Incidentally, blame for Scotland suffering a “damaging hard Brexit” lies squarely with you and your fellow “dependence at any cost” BritNats. Absolutely no one with a lick of reality thinks either the SNP or laughable Lib Dems are to blame for the unleashed racism and xenophobia of your UK nationalism. 

Yawn. Same old piffle.  Making baseless assumptions on what you think i believe rather than addressing points i've made.

I'm not a British nationalist, you obtuse ignoramus. I'm not even against Scottish independence on principle. You're living proof that you can't reason someone out of a stance they didn't reason themselves into to begin with.

I opposed the election that brought about this hard Brexit. The party you blindly support voted for it out of narrow minded political self-interest. The history books will show this and the way the SNP threw the working class under the bus.

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Terry_Tibbs

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

9 minutes ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

I'm not a British nationalist, you obtuse ignoramus.

13 hours ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

Ad hominem attacks are the mark of a low iq.

 

 

[Antlion]

17 minutes ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

Yawn. Same old piffle.  Making baseless assumptions on what you think i believe rather than addressing points i've made.

I'm not a British nationalist, you obtuse ignoramus. I'm not even against Scottish independence on principle. You're living proof that you can't reason someone out of a stance they didn't reason themselves into to begin with.

I opposed the election that brought about this hard Brexit. The party you blindly support voted for it out of narrow minded political self-interest. The history books will show this and the way the SNP threw the working class under the bus.

 

Given your points are laughable and you’re happy to accuse everyone who doesn’t subscribe to your hypocritical beliefs in the union at any cost as “petty nationalists” and “anti English”, you hardly have a leg to stand on when whining about “baseless assumptions”. 

I doubt the history books - or at least those that aren’t written by crackpots - will blame the election of the hard right Johnson government on anyone other than A) The people who elected him and B) Corbyn’s failure to sell his message.

I do wish you’d get over the idea claiming that you didn’t want something in the first place excuses or justifies your desire to see it continue. So you didn’t want Brexit - that doesn’t excuse your demands that Scotland suffer it now. So you didn’t want an election - that doesn’t excuse your defence of Johnson and shared goal of keeping Scotland a dependent, debt ridden region now. And your desire to maintain the union at any price shares the blame for every penny of debt accrued in Scotland’s name; every death inflicted by the Tory government; every financial peculation carried out by the disaster capitalists. Own it, you snivelling wreck. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Antlion

[renton]

On 20/07/2020 at 17:59, Terry_Tibbs said:

The union has almost certainly been successful from a Scottish perspective. Lets remind ourselves why we entered into the union in the first place. We were bankrupt after incurring a great debt after our failed attempt at colonising Panama. By entering into the union the UK crown paid off our debt. The Scots weren't above imperialism we were just completely incompetent at it. As well as that we've been subsided from the get go.

Scottish entry into Union had little to do with Darien, most of the debt of which was held by private individuals and everything to do with diverging political ambitions and lack of a clear successor to the joint Anglo-Scot crown.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Security_1704

The Scots threatened to choose their own successor and split the Union of the Crowns, somewhat fed up with being hauled into England's wars which heavily disrupted our European trade. 

The English, not in thrall to the idea of a Scotland with a seperate foreign policy that could make an alliance with France and Spain and let those armies into England through the backdoor, retaliated with the Aliens act of 1705 which removed rights of trade and property to Scots in England as well as the Navigations act that threatened access to the North American colonies that were one of Scotland's last revenue streams thanks to the aforementioned English wars with most of Europe. 

Thus, economic blockade by England was used to bring Scotland into the Union, and the Scots Lords extracted a lump sum of English treasury money  during negotiations to pay off their Darien debts into the bargain.

So, really, apart from it's temporal closeness to the eventual Union, beyond the opportunism of the Scots Upper class to pay off their debts, Darien played very little role in the Union, a matter first and foremost brought about by the sputtering, faltering genetics of the Stuart household.

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

It's good to have Pet Jeden back on the Brexit thread.

[Baxter Parp]

Yet the SNP are doing a great job. Declining public services, falling behind in international league tables, scandals that would have put John Major's government to shame.

The SNP are doing a great job, far better than any previous administration, yes. However, that's completely irrelevant as the voters would be able to choose who governs Scotland.

[Terry_Tibbs]

16 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Given your points are laughable and you’re happy to accuse everyone who doesn’t subscribe to your hypocritical beliefs in the union at any cost as “petty nationalists” and “anti English”, you hardly have a leg to stand on when whining about “baseless assumptions”. 

I doubt the history books - or at least those that aren’t written by crackpots - will blame the election of the hard right Johnson government on anyone other than A) The people who elected him and B) Corbyn’s failure to sell his message.

I do wish you’d get over the idea claiming that you didn’t want something in the first place excuses or justifies your desire to see it continue. So you didn’t want Brexit - that doesn’t excuse your demands that Scotland suffer it now. So you didn’t want an election - that doesn’t excuse your defence of Johnson and shared goal of keeping Scotland a dependent, debt ridden region now. And your desire to maintain the union at any price shares the blame for every penny of debt accrued in Scotland’s name; every death inflicted by the Tory government; every financial peculation carried out by the disaster capitalists. Own it, you snivelling wreck. 

In what way are my beliefs hypocritical? Do explain. Of course you can't. Please refrain from using words you don't understand.

Yet you were blaming this Tory government on me despite the fact i've never voted Tory in my life. The SNP voting for an election that was highly likely to lead to a hard Brexit was a prime reason we're in the mess that we're now in. Brexit has now happened and a vote for will Scottish independence will not reverse that outcome.

Are you seriously saying Scotland wouldn't be debt ridden right now? Had we voted Yes in 2014 we'd be in even more shtuck. SNP gambled everything on historically high oil prices only for the price to collapse a month or so later.

Again with the straw man attacks. I'm not willing to defend the union at all costs, I'll support independence when you lot come up with a credible plan and stop talking of the hole in yer arse.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Terry_Tibbs

[Terry_Tibbs]

"In terms of its fiscal balance, Scotland's independence would require taxes derived from its offshore (North Sea) activity to be sufficient to offset the extra monies (in per head terms) currently transferred from the rest of the UK (via the Barnett formula system) in order to pay for the current level of public services. Based on current projections, such North Sea related tax revenues would amount to less than the likely Barnett transfer, leading to a net loss in funding at the time of independence. Under such circumstances the question of whether or not Scotland could afford to initiate the building up of an ‘Oil Fund', is largely a redundant one. "

 

McLaren, J., & Armstrong, J. (2014). Scotland's Economic Performance and the Fiscal Implications of Moving to Independence. National Institute Economic Review, 227, R3-R13. doi:10.1177/002795011422700102

 

That report was written before the arse fell out the oil price.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Terry_Tibbs

[Rodhull]

11 minutes ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

"In terms of its fiscal balance, Scotland's independence would require taxes derived from its offshore (North Sea) activity to be sufficient to offset the extra monies (in per head terms) currently transferred from the rest of the UK (via the Barnett formula system) in order to pay for the current level of public services. Based on current projections, such North Sea related tax revenues would amount to less than the likely Barnett transfer, leading to a net loss in funding at the time of independence. Under such circumstances the question of whether or not Scotland could afford to initiate the building up of an ‘Oil Fund', is largely a redundant one. "

 

McLaren, J., & Armstrong, J. (2014). Scotland's Economic Performance and the Fiscal Implications of Moving to Independence. National Institute Economic Review, 227, R3-R13. doi:10.1177/002795011422700102

 

That report was written before the arse fell out the oil price.

“Apparent inconsistencies between official GNI and Scottish revenue figures also means that the existing fiscal balance position remains open to question.“

 

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Rodhull

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Terry_Tibbs said:

In what way are my beliefs hypocritical? Do explain. Of course you can't. Please refrain from using words you don't understand.

Yet you were blaming this Tory government on me despite the fact i've never voted Tory in my life. The SNP voting for an election that was highly likely to lead to a hard Brexit was a prime reason we're in the mess that we're now in. Brexit has now happened and a vote for will Scottish independence will not reverse that outcome.

Are you seriously saying Scotland wouldn't be debt ridden right now? Had we voted Yes in 2014 we'd be in even more shtuck. SNP gambled everything on historically high oil prices only for the price to collapse a month or so later.

Again with the straw man attacks. I'm not willing to defend the union at all costs, I'll support independence when you lot come up with a credible plan and stop talking of the hole in yer arse.

Why are your beliefs hypocritical? Where should I start? You claim that Scotland will be an economic basket case if it goes independent; yet you cite as evidence figures of its performance under the union. You claim that wishing to achieve independence from a political union is petty nationalism based on xenophobia, and yet you deny that Brexit Britain, which is seeking independence from a political union, is a nationalist state. You claim that Scottish independence is xenophobic, but claim also to see no evidence of xenophobia in UK nationalism or notorious racist Boris Johnson. You suggest that an independent Scotland will have to join the Euro, which is bad, but will be unable to join the Euro because of its economic legacy of debt and deficit achieved by the union, which is also apparently bad. You claim Scotland is in dire straits after centuries of Westminster rule, and appear to think that this is a solid endorsement of continued Westminster rule.  You castigate others for “ad hominem” attacks, whilst spitting bile at anyone and everyone who dares argue against either UK nationalism or the lurch to the right that Brexit and its enablers, yourself included, have caused.
 

The reason we’re “in the mess we’re in now”, which you deride and yet want to continue, is because little Britons like you blithely claimed that the only way to secure EU membership was by rejecting independence. Then, of course, you were thrown under a bus by the outpouring of xenophobia and Europhobia that swept England and Wales and has left you smashing your head against a keypad on P&B again, desperately trotting our every poorly-written canard you got away with when you last had to use this account.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Antlion

[DublinMagyar]

I see Malky's back.

Won't be engaging

[Terry_Tibbs]

@antilion I can see you're a fan of Cathy Newman.

 

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, renton said:

Scottish entry into Union had little to do with Darien, most of the debt of which was held by private individuals and everything to do with diverging political ambitions and lack of a clear successor to the joint Anglo-Scot crown.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Security_1704

The Scots threatened to choose their own successor and split the Union of the Crowns, somewhat fed up with being hauled into England's wars which heavily disrupted our European trade. 

The English, not in thrall to the idea of a Scotland with a seperate foreign policy that could make an alliance with France and Spain and let those armies into England through the backdoor, retaliated with the Aliens act of 1705 which removed rights of trade and property to Scots in England as well as the Navigations act that threatened access to the North American colonies that were one of Scotland's last revenue streams thanks to the aforementioned English wars with most of Europe. 

Thus, economic blockade by England was used to bring Scotland into the Union, and the Scots Lords extracted a lump sum of English treasury money  during negotiations to pay off their Darien debts into the bargain.

So, really, apart from it's temporal closeness to the eventual Union, beyond the opportunism of the Scots Upper class to pay off their debts, Darien played very little role in the Union, a matter first and foremost brought about by the sputtering, faltering genetics of the Stuart household.

Who had the Scottish nobles borrowed from?