Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

Never mind this shite.
So skills that pay £30,000 or more, but not barmen, brick layers, hotel workers or care assistants? You utter Tory c**t. 

TBF those jobs could be filled by people looking for work.

Farmers fruit fields managed to get their fruit picked before FoM was a thing. It just seems these days that hard working people have come over here and done a great job whilst often being exploited as cheap labour.

There is an argument that if there is a lack of people to fill these roles then the hourly rate will go up until people are interested enough. This has more positives than negatives IMO.

However, if I was a 25 year old again I'd happily up sticks to Krakow. Wages are good, stuff is cheap, labour laws are mighty impressive.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

Unlike HB to just make stuff up to suit his agenda without backing it up.

 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

2 minutes ago, UsedToGoToCentralPark said:

Farmers fruit fields managed to get their fruit picked before FoM was a thing.

Aye, by school kids mostly.

[lichtgilphead]

3 hours ago, Detournement said:

There legally has to be six months between a referendum being legislated for and being held.

It's impossible to have a referendum before the summer.

Nonsense.

Please quote the Act & section that sets this out. 

I suspect you are confusing Electoral Commission recommendations with legal requirements. 

[Detournement]

25 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Never mind this shite.

So skills that pay £30,000 or more, but not barmen, brick layers, hotel workers or care assistants? You utter Tory c**t. 

You don't have a clue about class struggle you idiot. Away and ask your daddy about your family portfolio.

Quote

But if a surplus labouring population is a necessary product of accumulation or of the development of wealth on a capitalist basis, this surplus-population becomes, conversely, the lever of capitalistic accumulation, nay, a condition of existence of the capitalist mode of production. It forms a disposable industrial reserve army, that belongs to capital quite as absolutely as if the latter had bred it at its own cost.

Marx wrote about the effect of the surplus population of workers of workers 150 years ago. The First International ensured that migrant labourers didn't undercut wages and break strikes. The history of the labour movement has been about protecting wages and conditions. It is impossible to increase wages and improve conditions with a completely elastic labour supply. That's not a speculation or a theory it's the observable country we are living in with the longest period of wage stagnation for 200 years, the lowest level of strikes since 1893, massive numbers of zero hour contracts and the advent of the gig economy.

The workers movement has never been about fighting for the rights of people to do whatever they want. It's about organising labour to strengthen the position of the working class and using that strength to create a fairer society and world for everyone.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Detournement

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

Aye, by school kids mostly.

It was just before my time but some of my older friends went to the berries.

Don't think they were dragged there against their will either.

Bizarrely would it not be cheaper to go back to this model as minimum wage for kids is less than adults or are there different rules for agricultural roles?

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, UsedToGoToCentralPark said:

TBF those jobs could be filled by people looking for work.

Farmers fruit fields managed to get their fruit picked before FoM was a thing. It just seems these days that hard working people have come over here and done a great job whilst often being exploited as cheap labour.

There is an argument that if there is a lack of people to fill these roles then the hourly rate will go up until people are interested enough. This has more positives than negatives IMO.

However, if I was a 25 year old again I'd happily up sticks to Krakow. Wages are good, stuff is cheap, labour laws are mighty impressive.

I'd advise 25 year olds to go to Krakow sharpish then before they need a work permit and it costs firms more red tape to employ them.

I'd expect pubs, restaurants and hotels in the Highlands to go out of business before ruining their competitiveness by raising their wages significantly.  Same with fruit farmers, or move to a less labour intensive crop. And more incentive for automation in other industries.

[Detournement]

45 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Literally all the EU citizens at my work are mortgaged, have kids, have married Brits. Every single one. Stick yer hypotheticals.

Do you work in a salaried or hourly job? Presumably if everyone has a mortgage it's the higher end of the wage scale?

It's hard to find figures for EU churn going back a few years but last year it was "An estimated 219,000 citizens from other EU countries immigrated to the UK in the year to June 2018, and about 145,000 emigrated abroad."

 

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

 

I'd expect pubs, restaurants and hotels in the Highlands to go out of business before ruining their competitiveness by raising their wages significantly. 

There's nothing more competitive than being shut....

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Detournement said:

You don't have a clue about class struggle you idiot. Away and ask your daddy about your family portfolio.

Marx wrote about the effect of the surplus population of workers of workers 150 years ago. The First International ensured that migrant labourers didn't undercut wages and break strikes. The history of the labour movement has been about protecting wages and conditions. It is impossible to increase wages and improve conditions with a completely elastic labour supply. That's not a speculation or a theory it's the observable country we are living in with the longest period of wage stagnation for 200 years, the lowest level of strikes since 1893, massive numbers of zero hour contracts and the advent of the gig economy.

The workers movement has never been about fighting for the rights of people to do whatever they want. It's about organising labour to strengthen the position of the working class and using that strength to create a fairer society and world for everyone.

British Workers Of The World Unite! Free Movement But Only For The Middle Classes!

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

There's nothing more competitive than being shut....

Where is this pool of British unemployed just waiting for hotel wages to go up to £10 an hour before they appear?

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

Where is this pool of British unemployed just waiting for hotel wages to go up to £10 an hour before they appear?

There's about 90k of them in Scotland alone.

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Where is this pool of British unemployed just waiting for hotel wages to go up to £10 an hour before they appear?

Grimsby.

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Where is this pool of British unemployed just waiting for hotel wages to go up to £10 an hour before they appear?

It might need to be more than £10 an hour. They might also need to change the working periods to better suit the lifestyles of British workers eg if you have a hotel in the arse end of nowhere let people do two weeks on, two weeks off.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Detournement

[dee_62]

Where is this pool of British unemployed just waiting for hotel wages to go up to £10 an hour before they appear?

or the many who want to move out to a caravan in the country to work in the fields for at least 8 months of the year.

[Detournement]

Just now, dee_62 said:

or the many who want to move out to a caravan in the country to work in the fields for at least 8 months of the year.

Aye we can't be having farmers having to provide decent accommodation.

On the issue of seasonal work in general if it so vital to the economy it should be able to synchronise into the benefit system.

[welshbairn]

26 minutes ago, Detournement said:

You don't have a clue about class struggle you idiot. Away and ask your daddy about your family portfolio.

Marx wrote about the effect of the surplus population of workers of workers 150 years ago. The First International ensured that migrant labourers didn't undercut wages and break strikes. The history of the labour movement has been about protecting wages and conditions. It is impossible to increase wages and improve conditions with a completely elastic labour supply. That's not a speculation or a theory it's the observable country we are living in with the longest period of wage stagnation for 200 years, the lowest level of strikes since 1893, massive numbers of zero hour contracts and the advent of the gig economy.

The workers movement has never been about fighting for the rights of people to do whatever they want. It's about organising labour to strengthen the position of the working class and using that strength to create a fairer society and world for everyone.

^^^The honourable member on behalf of the 19th Century. 

[dee_62]

Aye we can't be having farmers having to provide decent accommodation.
On the issue of seasonal work in general if it so vital to the economy it should be able to synchronise into the benefit system.

Take out the caravan then - how many would move from Glasgow or Edinburgh or other areas of higher unemployment to stay in darkest Perthshire for 8 months a year?

It’s not really seasonal (in the traditional sense) any more either is it? farmers can’t afford to be changing their workforce every 2-3 weeks and training up new people to cover for summer holidays. From March onwards they need a steady reliable workforce right through to October/ November. We’re speaking about contracts with huge suppliers who demand lowest possible costs.

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, Detournement said:

It might need to be more than £10 an hour. They might also need to change the working periods to better suit the lifestyles of British workers eg if you have a hotel in the arse end of nowhere let people do two weeks on, two weeks off.

Aye but where will they come from? I assume you don't think there's a big pool of lazy dole scroungers about waiting for a better offer?

[I'm Brian]

1 hour ago, Londonwell said:

 

His obscure 10 year old article brought back some wonderful Anthony C Pick memories. 

Ah the Oxford graduate turned IT consultant. Halcyon Days