Old Firm Colts in L2

[kefc]

Although not popular with most the introduction of Rangers/Celtic Colt teams being part of the Lowland League  or SPFL 2 could be beneficial for the national team given time, at least the SPFL/SFA are trying new ways to improve the national teams fortunes, its a 2 year pilot, it it shows promise great, if it doesn’t then nothing ventured nothing gained.

From a selfish point of view in terms of our club and with the only way into the SPFL is through a 4 game play off which strongly favours the bottom club in SPFL 2, the bottom club will now be further strengthened by an additional £15k per season making it even harder for the pyramid to work fully in terms of regular promotion/relegation.

The integrity of this decision could be questioned for all clubs below SPFL 2 who have invested years and fortunes using their own money without handouts into improving their club with the ultimate goal of reaching the SPFL, these clubs will now be at a further disadvantage from this.

If Rangers/Celtic Colts can get put into the SPFL without going through the pyramid and the clubs voting them in are getting extra payments for that then surely in the interests of integrity and to save clubs in tier 5 & 6 of the pyramid feeling  aggrieved then surely the compromise would be the bottom club in SPFL 2 is automatically relegated with the winners of the LL & HL playing off for promotion.

I know this won’t be popular on this part of the forum but with automatic relegation, if a team is relegated from SPFL2 it gives them a much better chance to get back up,  it also freshens up the league each year or 2 with the introduction of new ambitious clubs into the league system.

Edited January 21, 2018 by kefc

[strichener]

2 minutes ago, kefc said:

Although not popular with most the introduction of Rangers/Celtic Colt teams being part of the Lowland League  or SPFL 2 could be beneficial for the national team given time, at least the SPFL/SFA are trying new ways to improve the national teams fortunes, its a 2 year pilot, it it shows promise great, if it doesn’t then nothing ventured nothing gained.

From a selfish point of view in terms of our club and with the only way into the SPFL is through a 4 game play off which strongly favours the bottom club in SPFL 2, the bottom club will be further strengthened by an additional £15k per season.

The integrity of this decision could be questioned for all clubs below SPFL 2 who have invested years and fortunes using their own money without handouts into improving their club with the ultimate goal of reaching the SPFL, these clubs will now be at a further disadvantage from this.

If Rangers/Celtic Colts can get put into the SPFL without going through the pyramid and the clubs voting them in are getting extra payments for that then surely in the interests of integrity and to save clubs in tier 5 & 6 Of the pyramid feeling  aggrieved then surely the compromise would be the bottom club in SPFL 2 is automatically relegated with the winners of the LL & HL playing off for promotion.

I know this won’t be popular on this part of the forum but with automatic relegation if a team is relegated from SPFL2 it gives them a much better chance to get back up,  it also freshens up the league each year or 2 with the introduction of new ambitious clubs into the league system.

So are we limiting the colts to only Scottish players?

[Galabankie]

A few Thoughts

The two year trial will include Celtic and Rangers Colts and any other Premiership club that wishes to take part, it is suggested by the SPFL that only  the two OF clubs are interested in the pilot. That would seem the other Premiership clubs are all happy with this for now as they are more interested in what will be the end game.

After the pilot there will be re-structuring of the Leagues (with potentially all 12 Premiership colt sides in the mix), I just hope all the L2 clubs voting for this think that £7500 - £10000 for each of the next two seasons is worth it, accepting this bribe is very short term indeed. Here is a sobering thought, if the two Colts teams finish 11th and 12th respectively, the team in 10th place will be in the relegation play-off position.

The pilot will have the clubs playing each other 3 times and wowee clubs will potentially achieve savings - an identified plus by the authors of the paper submitted to the clubs.

I can't reflect what the loan deals have been for other clubs but Annan have had Jordan Hart (Celtic), Jack Breslin (Celtic), Andrew Mitchell(Rangers), Ryan Sinnamon (Rangers), David Ferguson (Motherwell), Steven Lawless (Motherwell), Blair Henderson (Hibernian), Tom Fry (Motherwell), Harry Monaghan (Hibs), Jordan Halsman (Motherwell) from Premier League clubs.  This will impact on more than L2 clubs.

There is a lot of bullshit in this trial about player development, increased crowds in L2, greater hospitality/marketing opportunities, hopefully Annan remain firm in their position and vote against this - whatever the fans differences are they all need to unite and lobby their respective clubs to throw this pilot proposal out and prepare for what will be a bigger fight in the years to come.

 

[haufdaft]

I know this won’t be popular on this part of the forum but with automatic relegation, if a team is relegated from SPFL2 it gives them a much better chance to get back up,  it also freshens up the league each year or 2 with the introduction of new ambitious clubs into the league system.

I doubt having two teams that can't be promoted or relegated will help freshen up any league.

Not much integrity when, in theory, a team finishing third bottom may be relegated but the two teams below them are protected because they pay £15000 to reach of the other teams.

[kefc]

16 minutes ago, strichener said:

So are we limiting the colts to only Scottish players?

Of course not but I’m sure this is why they are being put in, to benefit the national team.

[strichener]

1 minute ago, kefc said:

Of course not but I’m sure this is why they are being put in, to benefit the national team.

Well I am glad you are sure because I am equally sure that neither Celtic nor Rangers give a monkey's f**k for the national team.

[kefc]

12 minutes ago, haufdaft said:

 

 

I doubt having two teams that can't be promoted or relegated will help freshen up any league.

Not much integrity when, in theory, a team finishing third bottom may be relegated but the two teams below them are protected because they pay £15000 to reach of the other teams.

 

The freshness I was alluding to was teams coming up from the HL or LL, clubs in SPFL2 if this goes ahead will have another increased financial advantage and the heavily weighed play off in their favour which could potentially block clubs moving up the pyramid.

Edited January 21, 2018 by kefc

[Ray Vaughn]

My points in no particular order:

1. Does anyone think that the vast majority of the Colt players will ever get as much as 5 starts for the first team over any time period?

 

2. If the parent team has a promising youngster they are going to keep him for the first team. Anyone as promising as Tierney isnae slumming it away to Central Park.

 

3. Remember to take off 20% VAT from your gate money calculations.

 

4. This may be a Trojan horse should the old squirm ever get the call to move to Engerlund PL. No doubt they would try to keep a team in our leagues too.

If they f**k off to England - doubtful Rangers would ever be welcomed after Manchester - then it’s a clean break for me.

 

5. Remember when SPL teams had a crisis in 2012 when supporters held off renewing season tickets to see if Sevco were going to be parachuted into a higher league (they were as the LL is the destination for new clubs)

Don’t renew yer season ticket. They will shit themselves.

 

6. Old Squirm fans don’t turn up when there is nothing at stake. Celtic stopped opening the upper tier for a couple of seasons.

Early 80s attendances at Ibrox Folks!

The challenge cup shows they will not bring lots of fans.

[AllyMonc]

Meaningless babble

So having a centralised ticket facility for all SPFL clubs doesn't make going to games easier?
Reducing the pricing or setting up the odd 'pay what you want' day doesn't make it more affordable?
Running theme days where the team wears a retro kit and fans get the chance to meet former players doesn't make it more fun?

[GordonS]

35 minutes ago, AllyMonc said:

So having a centralised ticket facility for all SPFL clubs doesn't make going to games easier?
 

Easier than paying cash at the gate? No.

[Marshmallo]

22 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Easier than paying cash at the gate? No.

Why not have both?

[Jan Vojáček]

You'll all be shocked to know that Chris Jack is in support of it...

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/15887194.Chris_Jack__It_is_nothing_ventured_nothing_gained_when_it_comes_to_Old_Firm_Colt_teams/

[AllyMonc]

Easier than paying cash at the gate? No.

Not necessarily but it allows the entire league structure to market the tickets. It also takes away the variables such as weather, travel issues etc that affect pay at the gate. If you've bought your ticket online before the game you've already made the financial commitment. And as someone already said you can have both.

[PauloPerth]

As many have said, this is basically the old firm are willing to bribe their colt teams into the league.  They guarantee a minimum of 250 away fans at £10 per head. They would play all fixtures away from home during the two year pilot. They know clubs at that level are tight for cash and would find it hard to turn it down.

So, basically, buy your way in then once you're in you're in, they're not going to be kicked out once the foot's in the door.  A Few years down the line, any benefits the other clubs have received are gradually eroded, hibs hearts and Aberdeen want a piece of the action and one by one more of the wee teams slide out of the league set up and into oblivion.

It stinks. I'd support a boycott at all levels of Scottish football. Although it sounds extreme, I genuinely feel, as others have stated, that I would seriously consider whether I wanted to watch Scottish football anymore, or help fund it.

[Cowden Cowboy]

So having a centralised ticket facility for all SPFL clubs doesn't make going to games easier?
Reducing the pricing or setting up the odd 'pay what you want' day doesn't make it more affordable?
Running theme days where the team wears a retro kit and fans get the chance to meet former players doesn't make it more fun?

On your first point your original comment was about Lower League clubs - for Lower League clubs it's already even easier they use a clever system called pay at the gate and no tickets needed.

On your second point of course it makes it more affordable but it does not increase revenue as you claimed or clubs would be following that route anyway - It's easy to allege marketing myopia when you don't have to pay the bills and wages

Yes lots of clubs do similar already

[Ira Gaines]

I've just emailed Morton as well. My main concern is the prospect of allowing the Celtic colts to play at Cappielow. If we show absolutely no support to the idea, then fair enough. Any show of support, including that, is pretty much it for me.

[yoda]

The idea that a bunch of (at best) semi-talented young footballers playing in the Third Division is going to have any real or significant impact on the fortunes of the national team is ludicrous. 

Equally as a ludicrous as the implication that there's a gold mine of untapped Scottish talent that is been held back by not having 'Colt' teams.

Edited January 22, 2018 by yoda

[BrigtonClyde]

See folks, this isn't really to do with just Celtic & Rangers, it's the classic Scottish football scenario of them identifying a problem, knowing the correct solution but pursuing the wrong one

For years all of the top tier clubs and several in the Championship have operated extensive youth development programmes, usually ranging from age 9 up to late teens / early 20's.  Thousands of kids have come through these programmes and comparitively few have become first team regulars.  The reason for that is managers, rightly or wrongly, feel they can't "trust" them and their "mentality" due to the fact that they've only played against players the same age up through the years via the Pro Youth set up.

In other words, they've not been learning from experienced Pro's, and that's due to the removal of the Reserve teams.  So all these kids hit a brick wall at around 17 or 18.  Their solution is to loan them out to lower league teams (or play against them with this Colts suggestion), but it's flawed.  While it gets them game time, they're not learning off top level Pro's, their own standards decrease and only a tiny percentage of those loaned out return to establish themselves in the first team.      Most end up permanently in the lower leagues or disappearing from the game.

We would like to see more kids coming through as someone else said, for the ultimate benefit of the national team.  Top tier chairmen would because they'd like to see more in the way of transfer fees boosting their revenues.  Project Brave have also recommended the return of Reserve Teams and cutting the number of Pro Youth set ups (correctly) as only a limited number of clubs really have the infrastructure to run it properly.

But the clubs feel Reserve teams are too costly and there are a lot of people who have made money out of their involvement in the youth set up but have delivered next to nothing - so there's a lot of vested interests in the current failed system staying as it is.  That's why you've got garbage like this being proposed which is doomed to failure in every conceivable way.

[haufdaft]

This will mean that instead of loaning players to the lower league teams, the old firm will retain them in their Colts.

Their Colt teams will miss the opportunity of playing with, and getting guidance from many senior experienced players other than the two in their team. How is that better for Scottish football?

[GordonD]

On 20/01/2018 at 19:00, GordonD said:

Suppose the OF Colts do go into League 2. What happens if Rangers are liquidated again and have to start from there, again? Are they allowed to play two teams in the same division?

 

On 21/01/2018 at 09:38, thekorean said:

Wouldn't their reserve team be liquidated with them?

Don't confuse the issue with logic!