Sin Bins

[The Master]

The latest IFAB proposal is to introduce sin bins for yellow card offences.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38824937

I can see the benefit of sin bins, but if they were to be introduced they shouldn't be for all yellow card offences.

Off the top of my head, diving is a current yellow offence that would definitely be a candidate. Maybe also two yellows should be a 10-minute sin bin; a third yellow is then a red (Graham Poll likes this). It could then be two sin-binnable offences = red.

In any case, I'm sure that, being IFAB, this will be carefully thought-out and correctly implemented in a way that all involved with football will agree with..

[kirkyblue2]

My suggestion would be an amber card for bookings like kicking the ball away or running into the crowd and 2 ambers could equal a yellow. Straight yellow = sin bin.

[Michael W]

It seems pretty poorly thought out. It may work for things such as diving or where a player cynically tries to gain an advantage, where these offences don't currently carry a red card. 

I don't however see how you would then deal with a poor tackle worthy of a yellow in itself provided it wasn't dangerous/deliberate. Losing a player for 10mins for something like that would seem unduly harsh. 

It's a bit different in rugby where offences are just punished with a penalty unless it's dangerous (then the player is binned/sent off (on rare occasions). You'd then just have to accept poor challenges in football would be a free kick and never anything else, unless it was pretty dangerous or the player did it persistently.  

Presumably yellow cards would be phased out under this, or else we'd open up a mess of all sorts. 

Overall, I'd prefer we just left sin bins in rugby. I think they work there, but it's an entirely different game.   

[Captain Material]

There is often talk of the game being softened too much. Challenges that "in my day" would've just warranted a free kick is now an automatic yellow. But there is no evidence that these harsher punishments lead to loads and loads of red cards. Players are obviously able to manage themselves once on a booking. Perhaps some of the non-tackle realted reasons for bookings should be awarded with a sin-bin though. For example, diving, going to the crowd if you score, too much dissent. 

All this is papering over the cracks, and in my opinion, video evidence is what we need and the FAs to have the baws to implement it correctly. The first few high profile players to be properly punished will pave the way for this disease that ruins so many games to be eradicated. 

HOWEVER, there is no 1 solution to such a subjective game. Look at the challenge that led to Luiz's free kick goal last night. Only on the 3rd or 4th replay do you see that Hazard buys the FK by waving his leg out allowing the defender to make contact with him and bring him down. the player could argue he was off balance forcing his leg to be there(!?) or whatever. The Ref's have no chance and need help

[Northboy]

7 minutes ago, Michael W said:

Overall, I'd prefer we just left sin bins in rugby. I think they work there, but it's an entirely different game.   

I can see sin bins being a complete nightmare for a referee to manage leading to all kinds of controversy. There are obvious issues with stoppages during the 10 minute period. Does a sin binned player have to re-enter the field during a stoppage in play? It's quite conceivable that there could be 4-5 players in the sin bin at one time and you can be sure that the managers and fans watches will be running quicker that the referees. Perhaps it's just about workable at to level with 4th officials but down the leagues and at grass roots level I see it leading to all kinds of problems.

[Northboy]

10 minutes ago, Captain Material said:

HOWEVER, there is no 1 solution to such a subjective game. Look at the challenge that led to Luiz's free kick goal last night. Only on the 3rd or 4th replay do you see that Hazard buys the FK by waving his leg out allowing the defender to make contact with him and bring him down. the player could argue he was off balance forcing his leg to be there(!?) or whatever. The Ref's have no chance and need help

Howard Webb's half time assessment was interesting. On replays Hazard created the contact but from the position of the referee (which was close and well sighted) it was a 100% free kick.

[smpar]

Things like blatant shirt-pulling when teams are on the counter attack (the ones that commentators call "clever fouls" - but let's not get into that utter nonsense) really piss me off, a yellow doesn't seem enough but a red would be too harsh. In that instance, a sin bin would be useful, however it'd be extremely difficult to actually differentiate the different fouls and sort them into sin-binnable/non-sin-binnable offences.

[7-2]

The whole principle of refereeing games and administering the rules needs to be totally overhauled. They are more or less still employing the same principles and techniques used when it was two sides trying to outplay each other. We are now in the age of two squads of trained professional cheats going out to do anything it takes not to lose a game. There's more than a sin bin needed.

[forameus]

29 minutes ago, 7-2 said:

The whole principle of refereeing games and administering the rules needs to be totally overhauled. They are more or less still employing the same principles and techniques used when it was two sides trying to outplay each other. We are now in the age of two squads of trained professional cheats going out to do anything it takes not to lose a game. There's more than a sin bin needed.

Well put.

On the face of it, it's going to be absolute chaos, but I know I'd probably be more likely to have interest in watching games as a neutral if there was the possibility of 2/3/4 man powerplays.  It would definitely make games more entertaining, even if, at the same time, they descended into farce.  But looking at it with a more sensible hat on, it would just be too chaotic to work.  Referees already have far too much pressure on them - adding this possibility in isn't going to encourage anyone to take up the (referee) cloth.

[HibeeJibee]

As stated above, I simply can't see how they could apply this to all yellow card offences. It's become common for half-a-dozen yellows to be handed-out in a run-of-the-mill game with little controversy - there have been games when most players on the pitch have been booked (did Spurs not get 11 players booked in a game last season)? It'd become farcical.

[Miguel Sanchez]

Please just call it anything other than "sin bin"

[Jambomo]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

As stated above, I simply can't see how they could apply this to all yellow card offences. It's become common for half-a-dozen yellows to be handed-out in a run-of-the-mill game with little controversy - there have been games when most players on the pitch have been booked (did Spurs not get 11 players booked in a game last season)? It'd become farcical.

I'd actually think it would be better if lesser/mistimed challenges generally were just rewarded with a free kick and yellows became reserved more for dangerous and cynical play. I think that what you see from some of the more highly regarded Refs anyway. I expect you'd see players managing themselves a bit better as well, as the punishment would be a bit harsher.

[54_and_counting]

4 hours ago, smpar said:

Things like blatant shirt-pulling when teams are on the counter attack (the ones that commentators call "clever fouls" - but let's not get into that utter nonsense) really piss me off, a yellow doesn't seem enough but a red would be too harsh. In that instance, a sin bin would be useful, however it'd be extremely difficult to actually differentiate the different fouls and sort them into sin-binnable/non-sin-binnable offences.

tbh i dont think a red is too harsh for stuff like that, grabbing a players shirt etc, there is absolutely no way a player can claim he is going for the ball, look at rodwells foul against dembele last night, id red card that every day of the week, players would soon learn that "clever" fouls arent wanted in football

[Salvo Montalbano]

Don't you still need to have 7 players for a game to continue? A few boys in the sin bin early on and we'd be near an abandonment quite quickly. What happens if a keeper is binned? Can they bring on a sub keeper and nominate a player to go off for the 10 minutes like if he'd been given a red card? What about in the last 10 minutes? What happens with injury time and stoppages? Do players have to wait on a stoppage to come back on/wait for a signal from the ref and so be off for more than 10 (or whatever) minutes? And of course the first time a goal is conceded where a player would normally be defending and has been incorrectly or controversially sent to the bin will result in huge complaints and recriminations. I really can't see how it can work in such a fluid game as ours. 

[Jaggy Snake]

I think that sin bins should be trialled for certain offences but I have my doubts about them working. Putting aside multiple sin-binning issues, it’s much easier for a team to play defensively and shut up shop for 10/15 minutes in football, than in rugby. It may actually lead to boring spells in matches where teams just sit in until they get their player back, especially if they are already ahead in the game.

Surprisingly someone made a reasonable suggestion on TalkSport this morning, saying anything that would be a current red card could essentially become a sin bin offence. Then during the time the player is in the bin, the fourth official could view replays and decide whether it would become a permanent red card. The player would then either not return to the game (for a real red card offence), return to the game after the allotted sin bin time (for an intermediate offence) or allow the player to return immediately (for completely incorrect decisions).

This would at least find a way to introduce using TV replays without holding up the game. For overturned decisions obviously one team would still be disadvantaged, being a man down while the replays were reviewed, but it would be better than losing a man for the remainder of the game as with current red cards.

The issue with that would be referees could easily err on the side of caution, giving out more red cards, knowing the player would be allowed back on if it was the wrong decision.

And actually thinking about it, only using TV replays for the red card itself, means a player could concede a penalty and be sent off. The penalty is scored and the game continues but the fourth official decides it was an incorrect decision. The player would be allowed back on to the pitch but the incorrect penalty decision, and resultant goal, would stand. Maybe it’s not such a great idea…

[54_and_counting]

if anyone had the misfortune of watching ice hockey, they have set plays to deal when they are a man down and its basically shutting up shop and doing fuck all for x amount of time

fuck that in football, imagine a mourinho team away to one of the top 6 and he gets a man sin binned, we'd have 10 united players in the fucking 6 yard box

[Jamaldo]

I hear throbber has a sin bin in his flat.

[Ro Sham Bo]

I would introduce it for offences such as dissent and diving. Anything other than that could get messy.

[7-2]

Diving should be a straight red not a rap over the knuckles.

[Miguel Sanchez]

2 hours ago, 54_and_counting said:

if anyone had the misfortune of watching ice hockey, they have set plays to deal when they are a man down and its basically shutting up shop and doing fuck all for x amount of time

fuck that in football, imagine a mourinho team away to one of the top 6 and he gets a man sin binned, we'd have 10 united players in the fucking 6 yard box

Not remotely comparable given the size of the field of play and demonstrably false given the amount of goals scored in a powerplay compared to normal and the advantage having one or two extra players in such a small field of play and in such a fluid sport offers. Fuck knows what you were watching.

I have no doubt however that if this became a thing in football that it would have the arse booted out it. I'd imagine if you looked at the figures for increased scoring chances for teams playing against 10/9/however many men there wouldn't be an appreciable difference. Certainly not within the first 5-10 minutes which would be the sort of time we'd expect from such a scheme and as, which has been noted, would just see teams shitfesting it til their player came back.