New clubs in the East of Scotland

[LongTimeLurker]

12 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

...Whole point of the pyramid is any team can join and find their level as long as they’re nearing the required standards.

Not how things actually work on that last bit. The leagues involved in the SFA's pyramid have retained the right to determine who they accept into membership through application and a democratic majority vote of the existing members. The EoS membership is therefore perfectly within its rights to decide that a club that has behaved as deceitfully as Bo'ness United Juniors have vis-a-vis the real Bo'ness United would not be a positive addition to their league and should be told to GTF.

Edited March 20, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Pyramidic]

26 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Not how things actually work on that last bit. The leagues involved in the SFA's pyramid have retained the right to determine who they accept into membership through application and a democratic majority vote of the existing members. The EoS membership is therefore perfectly within its rights to decide that a club that has behaved as deceitfully as Bo'ness United Juniors have vis-a-vis the real Bo'ness United would not be a positive addition to their league and should be told to GTF.

I know these issues are very emotive but I suppose they do heal with time. My own solution would be for Bo’ness United Juniors (or whatever title) to become the Senior section of Bo’ness Cadora AFC. There would be a certain historical poignancy to see the Cadora name being fielded again at a higher level. It would also perhaps cement the position of the club as a contributor rather than a competitor to the Lowland League club’s great heritage.

[Malty Guy]

3 hours ago, Burnieman said:

A club applies and is either accepted or rejected. What have the WoS done that the EoS aren't doing with regards to new clubs, can you provide examples?

You're forming opinion based on gossip on a forum. Be grateful the WoS and EoS are attracting new clubs, potentially over 20 between them for next season.

I’m struggling to understand the deep need to know which clubs are applying and for what reason. Surely all that information  is confidential between the Club/EoS. 
the gossip is certainly interesting and informative - but that’s exactly in the main what is - gossip!!! The integrity of the EoS is being put into further jeopardy. It is what it is.

Eventually, it’ll all come out in the wash. 

[Rockall]

Will be interesting to see how many of the current EoS applicants get knocked back after all checks have been completed. If integrity is a meaningful cornerstone of the EoS, I can see at least 2 being knocked back.

[Malty Guy]

17 minutes ago, Rockall said:

Will be interesting to see how many of the current EoS applicants get knocked back after all checks have been completed. If integrity is a meaningful cornerstone of the EoS, I can see at least 2 being knocked back.

That’s their role - but in the main, I’d  expect they are just going to take what’s on paper in front of them. I don’t know their verification process : but Dont think they’ve got enough cash to fund a deep look into things. Hopefully addressed in the future.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Malty Guy
Oops

[AlanCamelonfan]

15 minutes ago, Rockall said:

Will be interesting to see how many of the current EoS applicants get knocked back after all checks have been completed. If integrity is a meaningful cornerstone of the EoS, I can see at least 2 being knocked back.

Which 2. I really don't see how boness can be refused if they rebrand. Plenty of clubs share grounds. If north juniors and tayside are in the pyramid u would have 2 Montrose teams in same ground. 3 forfar teams in the pyramid.

 

Sauchie in the other hand has always looked like a reserves side 

[LongTimeLurker]

15 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

...Plenty of clubs share grounds...

True, but almost always based on an amicable agreement between the two clubs involved something that will be absent in the Bo'ness scenario. An amateur club called Linlithgow Thistle said we'll be your feeder club in pathway terms to the real BUs and agreed to a Memorandum of Understanding to that effect and were welcomed into Newtown Park on that basis. They have now reneged on the MoU after only a couple of seasons and now want to be treated as a rival Bo'ness entity that is not wanted by the original Bo'ness host club. Those circumstances are unusual enough that they merit a close look and careful consideration rather than an automatic rubber stamp if all the boxes are ticked.

Edited March 20, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[John S]

It would be interesting to see this MoU. Certainly it seems what the Juniors said in the meetings with supporters has been cast aside.

True, but almost always based on an amicable agreement between the two clubs involved something that will be absent in the Bo'ness scenario. An amateur club called Linlithgow Thistle said we'll be your feeder club in pathway terms to the real BUs and agreed to a Memorandum of Understanding to that effect and were welcomed into Newtown Park on that basis. They have now reneged on the MoU after only a couple of seasons and now want to be treated as a rival Bo'ness entity that is not wanted by the original Bo'ness host club. Those circumstances are unusual enough that they merit a close look and careful consideration rather than an automatic rubber stamp if all the boxes are ticked.

[Burnieman]

Don’t see any issue with a second Bo’ness team as long as they meet the required criteria and obviously have a slight name change as it’s too close to the BUs name. Can Bo’ness sustain 2 clubs? No idea but as long as they’re sustainable they’re doing no one any harm. If they’re not sustainable they’ll drop out or fold. Every team had to start somewhere and find their fan base some lasted and others were consigned to history. Whole point of the pyramid is any team can join and find their level as long as they’re meeting the required standards.

As long as they meet requirements, have an agreement in place with the owners of Newtown Park, and demonstrate they are an entirely separate club, then it's highly unlikely they will be refused.

Bo'ness United may not be happy, but they are not EoS members. Memos of understanding between the clubs are irrelevant.

Most people probably think having two clubs in Bo'ness isn't the greatest of ideas in the long run, but that's not for the EoS to judge.

[LongTimeLurker]

Bo'ness United are still members of the EoSFA the body which runs the EoSFL:

https://www.eosfl.com/clubdirlist/1040

The treatment of a fellow EoSFA member by the applicant in this regard may not be something that is viewed as being irrelevant by the EoSFL clubs involved in the vote. You don't speak on their behalf.

Edited March 20, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnieman]

Bo'ness United are still members of the EoSFA the body which runs the EoSFL:
https://www.eosfl.com/clubdirlist/1040
The treatment of a fellow EoSFA member by the applicant in this regard may not be something that is viewed as being irrelevant by the EoSFL clubs involved in the vote. You don't speak on their behalf.

Jeezo, the EoSFA does not run the league.

[FairWeatherFan]

The one thing that has been seen with the EoSFL is that if you don't have all your ducks in row or a proper plan for the future it doesn't bode well.

If Bo'ness Juniors' lease isn't airtight and there's this grudge between the clubs that might put them on at risk.

[Burnieman]

The one thing that has been seen with the EoSFL is that if you don't have all your ducks in row or a proper plan for the future it doesn't bode well.
If Bo'ness Juniors' lease isn't airtight and there's this grudge between the clubs that might put them on at risk.

Ground issues has been the problem in the past with Syngenta and Glenrothes Strollers, although Bo'ness United don't own Newtown Park. Not sure the plan for the future part is anything more than commitment to work towards a licence, need to check the latest version of the application form.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Burnieman said:

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The one thing that has been seen with the EoSFL is that if you don't have all your ducks in row or a proper plan for the future it doesn't bode well.
If Bo'ness Juniors' lease isn't airtight and there's this grudge between the clubs that might put them on at risk.

Ground issues has been the problem in the past with Syngenta and Glenrothes Strollers. Not sure the plan for the future part is anything more than commitment to work towards a licence, need to check the latest version of the application form.

I'd consider ground improvements as part of planning for the future. Inverkeithing and Thornton etc. Glenrothes Strollers were meant to have been asked to do something, but would fail to even bother to turn up for the meeting.

For a club like Edinburgh South if they've only got a set lease of a number of years as an example, i'm sure the Board would have been asking what's the plan after x number of years.

[Burnieman]

I'd consider ground improvements as part of planning for the future. Inverkeithing and Thornton etc. Glenrothes Strollers were meant to have been asked to do something, but would fail to even bother to turn up for the meeting.
For a club like Edinburgh South if they've only got a set lease of a number of years as an example, i'm sure the Board would have been asking what's the plan after x number of years.

Strollers needed a boundary fence but gave no indication when and if they'd put one up, and as you say never even appeared at the AGM. Not sure the circumstances of South's share with Dalkeith but I'd assume the board would have wanted to know future intentions with regards to a ground of their own.

[San Starko Rover]

As long as they meet requirements, have an agreement in place with the owners of Newtown Park, and demonstrate they are an entirely separate club, then it's highly unlikely they will be refused.

Bo'ness United may not be happy, but they are not EoS members. Memos of understanding between the clubs are irrelevant.

Most people probably think having two clubs in Bo'ness isn't the greatest of ideas in the long run, but that's not for the EoS to judge.

Fair enough and I agree that they need to be totally separate (I’m against any Colts / Reserves personally) I totally understand Bo’ness being against it and the questions over their validity with a town the size of Bo’ness. But yes it’s not the EOS place to decide that. As long as they meet the criteria for ground etc and rules they should really be accepted. Don’t personally think they’ll last long term as they were obviously a reaction to BUs joining the EOS but there’s no genuine reason to reject them for me.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Strollers needed a boundary fence but gave no indication when and if they'd put one up, and as you say never even appeared at the AGM. Not sure the circumstances of South's share with Dalkeith but I'd assume the board would have wanted to know future intentions with regards to a ground of their own.

This is all i'm getting at on Bo'ness Juniors not having an airtight lease. It doesn't look like they've got any intention of creating their own ground, otherwise they would have taken on the Bo'ness United branding.

I know the BU's aren't in control of the ground but if there's this genuine conflict it could be problematic.

[Burnieman]

This is all i'm getting at on Bo'ness Juniors not having an airtight lease. It doesn't look like they've got any intention of creating their own ground, otherwise they would have taken on the Bo'ness United branding.
I know the BU's aren't in control of the ground but if there's this genuine conflict it could be problematic.

As you say as long as the agreement meets the expectations of the EoS then fine. Helps that the fixtures Secty for LL and EoS is the same person.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, John S said:

It would be interesting to see this MoU. Certainly it seems what the Juniors said in the meetings with supporters has been cast aside.

Definitely on the first part. Here are some old posts on the subject:

On 15/10/2019 at 08:40, LongTimeLurker said:

The complication in Bo'ness is that Newtown Park belongs to the people of Bo'ness and is run through a not for profit association rather than by the EoS Bo'ness United club. That meant there was nothing Bo'ness United could do to stop an amateur club called Linlithgow Thistle (that had been run to a significant extent by people from Bo'ness) from moving in and setting up shop as a Bo'ness junior club, if the SJFA accepted them into membership. Happy to be corrected on this but my understanding is that although it is being made to look from the outside like it is all one big happy Bo'ness United family, they are two separate clubs.

and responding to my post:

On 30/10/2019 at 16:51, Sure & Stedfast said:

I understand a MOU exists between the teams. Separate committees but common aims under the one club name. I think MOU covers what happens if junior association enters the pyramid, similar to Stirling Uni model.

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[8MileBU]

9 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Bo’ness absolutely should be removing any rights of using name/badges etc. 

Yup.

8 hours ago, Dev said:

Maybe e.g. if Grangemouth Stadium is acceptable then Syngenta and a re-branded Bo'ness United Junior CFC could ground share. Making use of a facility which would enhance senior football locally. This would also get them out of a certain LL side's hair!

A fantastic idea. Grangemouth United Junior CFC who play at Grangemouth Stadium works for me. 

Cheerio. 

7 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The thoughts over Bo'ness United Juniors is no different than the dismissal that clubs like Scoutable United and Edusport Academy have had. It's not a youth club with roots making a step up or an established amateur making the step up. It's an established amateur that erased their own identity, moved town, and leached of the brand of an existing club.

Spot on. 

5 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

Don’t see any issue with a second Bo’ness team as long as they meet the required criteria and obviously have a slight name change as it’s too close to the BUs name. Can Bo’ness sustain 2 clubs? No idea but as long as they’re sustainable they’re doing no one any harm. If they’re not sustainable they’ll drop out or fold. Every team had to start somewhere and find their fan base some lasted and others were consigned to history. Whole point of the pyramid is any team can join and find their level as long as they’re meeting the required standards.

They are as sustainable as their backer’s willingness to dole the hand outs.

5 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Not how things actually work on that last bit. The leagues involved in the SFA's pyramid have retained the right to determine who they accept into membership through application and a democratic majority vote of the existing members. The EoS membership is therefore perfectly within its rights to decide that a club that has behaved as deceitfully as Bo'ness United Juniors have vis-a-vis the real Bo'ness United would not be a positive addition to their league and should be told to GTF.

100% all this, and I would suggest any voting clubs should think carefully in this respect.

Now I’m fairly sure there are probably a couple of clubs who will be keen to vote-in Linlithgow Bo’ness Junior Thistle CFC for no other reason than in a petty “Let’s vote them in to piss off Bo’ness United! heehee!” sort of way. 

However there are numerous other established clubs (some for a long-time) whose committees work a lot harder and who actually have a reasonable support who provide a significant contribution towards sustainability at the gate even if that money alone isn’t enough, and I absolutely unashamedly include Bo’ness United in that. However, it would be utterly sickening for any of these sides  (maybe even Bo’ness United eventually) to find themselves being leapfrogged by a new club with no support that are being bankrolled on their journey having  previously wormed their way into the long-time recognised home of another club leaching off their history and identity. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by 8MileBU