Sergeant Wilson Posted Tuesday at 18:00 Share Posted Tuesday at 18:00 34 minutes ago, welshbairn said: What about the SFA rules about honouring football contracts? Would it not risk ICT losing their license if Big Dunc wasn't paid off in full? I don't know how it works. He'd go on the creditors list. If a buyer is found he'd get his money then under the league rules I think. If a new owner didn't pay football debt they'd not be allowed to play...again, I think. No-one found out if season ticket holders would count as a football debt as, of course, Airdrie wasn't saved. Even if they were, the winding up didn't leave any money to pay anyone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tarmo Posted Tuesday at 18:01 Share Posted Tuesday at 18:01 Just now, Skyline Drifter said: They are required to honour them in full (unsure if that includes managers does it? If it does then the rules have changed since Chisholm and Dodds were unsecured creditors with Dundee) but they can still make them redundant and add them to creditors to be dealt with down the line. Fair enough. I took it as read McKay would be biggest and Devine was the next highest profile name to me. If he's not actually on a bigger wage then he may well escape the first cull. You’re probably not that far off. I just shudder to think of some of the contracts handed out in the Gardiner/Ferguson dreaded duo era. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Malkmus Posted Tuesday at 18:03 Share Posted Tuesday at 18:03 (edited) The contract Gardiner handed to Mckay was under massive pressure from the fans, tbf. However, with more honest communication he may have been able to sell not offering Mckay a contract to some of the fanbase. Edited Tuesday at 18:03 by Stephen Malkmus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moorie Posted Tuesday at 18:14 Share Posted Tuesday at 18:14 On 02/10/2024 at 20:23, Sergeant Wilson said: Probably had them booked to play at the park. Then only to realise they had booked an Oasis tribute band 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Terrace Gazza Posted Tuesday at 18:34 Share Posted Tuesday at 18:34 30 minutes ago, Stephen Malkmus said: The contract Gardiner handed to Mckay was under massive pressure from the fans, tbf. However, with more honest communication he may have been able to sell not offering Mckay a contract to some of the fanbase. We tried to sign McKay but you increased your offer and he stayed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrshireTon Posted Tuesday at 19:52 Share Posted Tuesday at 19:52 On 07/10/2024 at 13:12, KirkieRR said: It was technically true at the time 'Airdrie United' put on Clydebank's clothes but agreement was reached more recently that Clydebank's history was, indeed, Clydebank's - and you'll have noticed that 'Airdrie United' have seamlessly become Airdrieonians FC again. "Seamlessly" isn't quite true. The mob who bought over Clydebank couldn't call themselves "Airdrieonians" in 2002 because there was already an "Airdrieonians" who were in the process of being liquidated - a process which often takes years. Instead, they opted for "Airdrie United", only reverting to "Airdrieonians" in 2013 once the original club/company had been completely liquidated and ceased to exist in any form. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted Tuesday at 21:02 Share Posted Tuesday at 21:02 Someone asked up the forum if there had been a more dramatic decline in Scottish football history, than ICT dropping from being Cup winners in 2015 to their present parlous state. The closest answer is Third Lanark- beaten Cup finalists in 1959 and third in the Scottish top flight a season later; defunct after a few years of a shyster crook as chairman, in 1967. Clearly ICT in an almighty mess and hope a way can be found through it. Agree that having Savage involved, Charlie Christie a more central role would be critical to the re-building of the club. If you do end up part time and in League Two because of admin, then you could do worse than have a combination of Bollan and Jack in charge- both know the part time leagues very well. All the best. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
die hard doonhamer Posted Tuesday at 21:19 Share Posted Tuesday at 21:19 3 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: They are required to honour them in full (unsure if that includes managers does it? If it does then the rules have changed since Chisholm and Dodds were unsecured creditors with Dundee) but they can still make them redundant and add them to creditors to be dealt with down the line. Fair enough. I took it as read McKay would be biggest and Devine was the next highest profile name to me. If he's not actually on a bigger wage then he may well escape the first cull. Out of interest, would it be the full value of the contract that is added to the creditor list, or is it just a statutory redundancy amount? Or something in the middle? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted Tuesday at 21:26 Share Posted Tuesday at 21:26 4 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: He's not making it up. Whether it might happen is another question but fundamentally a season ticket is a future contract for provision of service to a customer exactly the same as a gift voucher for a beautician or the same as a gift voucher for product at a shop. If they breach the contract and don't honour it then the holder becomes an ordinary creditor, just like a voucher holder. The administrator's job is to draw a line in the sand on existing liabilities and assets and establish if there's actually a business moving forward that could be profitable to sell as a going concern to a new owner (which in this case there clearly is) or if need be to sell the constituent assets to raise monies to pay the creditors and himself in which case it would head towards liquidation instead. It's perfectly possible that one might decide the best way forward is to make everyone a creditor and run games moving forward on a cash basis. Much will depend on whether they think that supporters will effectively pay twice for the same game or would be disenfranchised to the extent they won't pay to get in anyway. Much might also depend on whether there might be additional income raised from those season ticket holders at food kiosks, etc. Since Savage has made it clear he intends to see them out of administration and presumably can afford it, I'd imagine he'd be keen to ensure the administrator doesn't cancel them but ultimately it's not his decision. That said, as he said himself in that meeting, ICT are no cascading headlong out of control into admin. His funding of the last month or so has enabled them to move towards administration in control of things and presumably with a pretty accurate handle on what's owing and what future income sources are. It's likely that an administration can be gone through with less pain than normal. On the other comment, as the aim will be to cut costs as quickly as possible as long as you can fulfill upcoming fixtures, it's highly likely that the administrator will indeed get rid of the majority of high earners, on and off the pitch. You'd imagine Duncan Ferguson would be first out the door and I'm presuming guys like Billy McKay and Danny Devine will be amongst the highest earners and also likely redundancies along with whatever other senior well paid players there are. Any players with a potential resale value won't be binned though. Again though, it may be that a deal can be struck in some way with Savage to minimise the impact on players if he wants to keep them. It makes absolutely zero sense to cancel season tickets. Apart from a single expection, why has it never been before? It hasn't been done because it's ludicrous and stupid. These situations are when fans are needed the most and telling them to, basically, f**k off and pay again isn't going to help that. You'll be alienating many of the core fanbase who could then become less inclined to help out. Some could think it's not worth it and walk away completely. It doesn't save Inverness any money and doesn't make them any money, because there's no way many folk will pay once more for something they've already purchased, especially knowing they will get little to nothing back for their season ticket (and since some games have already been used, what is the calculation there?). Adding however many hundreds of folk to a list of creditors means Inverness need to pay out even more money. This potentially means any sort of CVA will also be less if there are hundreds more creditors as you're diluting the funds to be distributed. Furthermore, adding hundreds of creditors, especially ones you've angered recently, significantly increases the chance of it not being accepted as many could vote against it. There is no argument for cancelling season tickets which is why it hasn't been done, save for one outlier. Unsure why this has even been raised. There was no talk of this during any other administrations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peil Posted Tuesday at 21:32 Share Posted Tuesday at 21:32 (edited) 7 hours ago, DA Baracus said: Why would season tickets be cancelled? . Edited Tuesday at 21:37 by Peil Already covered far better than I could explain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledLichtie Posted Tuesday at 21:37 Share Posted Tuesday at 21:37 7 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: It makes absolutely zero sense to cancel season tickets. Apart from a single expection, why has it never been before? It hasn't been done because it's ludicrous and stupid. cancelling season tickets which is why it hasn't been done, save for one outlier. Unsure why this has even been raised. There was no talk of this during any other administrations. So apart from the time it has been done, its never been done? Its not even that much of an outlier. There haven't been *that* many administrations, not enough to call it an outlier. Nobody is saying it will happen, but nobody can say for sure it won't happen. Once the administrators are in, they run the show. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placidcasual Posted Tuesday at 21:42 Share Posted Tuesday at 21:42 It's a shame that only 30 years down the line the two original clubs would now have had access to the senior leagues. Did the league not kinda force both clubs' hands a little with the merger? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledLichtie Posted Tuesday at 21:45 Share Posted Tuesday at 21:45 5 hours ago, Fraz said: I see what you're saying but unlike a voucher which would be redeemed for a physical product usually which the company would then lose, ST holders tend to go to games and spend more money on food, at the bar or on merch. Maybe they'd save on stewards as there would barely be anyone there. You could make the argument that many people who have gift vouchers will spend more money when in the shop/on the site. After all, a lot of the time, vouchers are for small amounts that can't buy an awful lot. Many people go to the match and dont buy a programme/pie/raffle, and football fans are generally a foolish and overly loyal lot who will continue to hand over their precious cash no matter how f**ked things get, so there is an argument (not saying I agree with it!) that cancelling season tickets has a lot of upside and limited downside... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraz Posted Tuesday at 22:03 Share Posted Tuesday at 22:03 7 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said: You could make the argument that many people who have gift vouchers will spend more money when in the shop/on the site. After all, a lot of the time, vouchers are for small amounts that can't buy an awful lot. Many people go to the match and dont buy a programme/pie/raffle, and football fans are generally a foolish and overly loyal lot who will continue to hand over their precious cash no matter how f**ked things get, so there is an argument (not saying I agree with it!) that cancelling season tickets has a lot of upside and limited downside... People can make arguments for close to anything. Regardless, I can assure you cancelling season tickets would have a much larger downside and would be financially stupid. Terrible PR (which is the last thing we need more of) and massively alienates your biggest supporters. I sure as hell wouldn't be paying another near £500 for tickets and I can't imagine any of the others I go with would either. People even now with season tickets are struggling to find the energy to come and watch a Ferguson masterclass. It won't happen anyway so no point getting too riled up about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch Stanton Posted Tuesday at 22:08 Share Posted Tuesday at 22:08 1 hour ago, Ivo den Bieman said: Third Lanark- beaten Cup finalists in 1959... St. Mirren beat Aberdeen in the 1959 Cup final. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted Tuesday at 22:17 Share Posted Tuesday at 22:17 7 minutes ago, Arch Stanton said: St. Mirren beat Aberdeen in the 1959 Cup final. Quite right, beaten after a replay by Aberdeen in 1959 semi-final; they did finish 3rd in old Div 1 in 1961. Facts scrambled, it’s late 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parttimesupporter Posted Tuesday at 22:18 Share Posted Tuesday at 22:18 5 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: He's not making it up. Whether it might happen is another question but fundamentally a season ticket is a future contract for provision of service to a customer exactly the same as a gift voucher for a beautician or the same as a gift voucher for product at a shop. If they breach the contract and don't honour it then the holder becomes an ordinary creditor, just like a voucher holder. The administrator's job is to draw a line in the sand on existing liabilities and assets and establish if there's actually a business moving forward that could be profitable to sell as a going concern to a new owner (which in this case there clearly is) or if need be to sell the constituent assets to raise monies to pay the creditors and himself in which case it would head towards liquidation instead. It's perfectly possible that one might decide the best way forward is to make everyone a creditor and run games moving forward on a cash basis. Much will depend on whether they think that supporters will effectively pay twice for the same game or would be disenfranchised to the extent they won't pay to get in anyway. Much might also depend on whether there might be additional income raised from those season ticket holders at food kiosks, etc. Since Savage has made it clear he intends to see them out of administration and presumably can afford it, I'd imagine he'd be keen to ensure the administrator doesn't cancel them but ultimately it's not his decision. That said, as he said himself in that meeting, ICT are no cascading headlong out of control into admin. His funding of the last month or so has enabled them to move towards administration in control of things and presumably with a pretty accurate handle on what's owing and what future income sources are. It's likely that an administration can be gone through with less pain than normal. On the other comment, as the aim will be to cut costs as quickly as possible as long as you can fulfill upcoming fixtures, it's highly likely that the administrator will indeed get rid of the majority of high earners, on and off the pitch. You'd imagine Duncan Ferguson would be first out the door and I'm presuming guys like Billy McKay and Danny Devine will be amongst the highest earners and also likely redundancies along with whatever other senior well paid players there are. Any players with a potential resale value won't be binned though. Again though, it may be that a deal can be struck in some way with Savage to minimise the impact on players if he wants to keep them. The bit in bold is what would give me hope if I was a fan of ICT. Your club is not in the grip of someone like Vladimir Romanov or Craig Whyte, but someone who across as smart and realistic. I suspect there is some high stakes poker going on behind the scenes. My understanding is that there is not a lot in the way of tangible assets that can be sold, so the big creditors run the risk of getting hee haw if the club go into liquidation (my assumption is that their debts aren't secured so they would fall behind the administrators in the pecking order). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch Stanton Posted Tuesday at 22:19 Share Posted Tuesday at 22:19 Just now, Ivo den Bieman said: Quite right, beaten after a replay by Aberdeen in 1959 semi-final; they did finish 3rd in old Div 1 in 1961. Facts scrambled, it’s late They were beaten finalists in the following season's League Cup final. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moses1924 Posted Tuesday at 22:24 Share Posted Tuesday at 22:24 On the season ticket cancelation Airdrie tickets were canceled that season, still got mine somewhere as a grizzly souvenir. From what I remember the Administrator (later liquidator) had free reign to do what they thought necessary. We were quite early in terms of clubs going into admin and I think football club administrations are handled a bit differently now. Hope ICT get through this as its a horrible process but it seems there are people who will take the club out of administration. One thing that never fails to amaze me is how successful business people can be hapless when it comes to running football clubs, one of our directors at the time of administration being a chartered accountant for example... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted Tuesday at 22:43 Share Posted Tuesday at 22:43 1 hour ago, ExiledLichtie said: So apart from the time it has been done, its never been done? Its not even that much of an outlier. There haven't been *that* many administrations, not enough to call it an outlier. Nobody is saying it will happen, but nobody can say for sure it won't happen. Once the administrators are in, they run the show. This will be the 11th I think. So 1 in 11 is pretty low. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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