Junior football, what is the future?

[Goalie Hamish]

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

I will resist the temptation to respond with a similar vitriolic tone, I think it undignified.

The Monkeys with the organ grinder

......the monkeys agenda is.

I ask the monkeys again, why are you on this forum?

That right aye

Edited May 9, 2018 by Goalie Hamish

[Che Dail]

16 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

See this monkey and the organ grinder - isn't that a scene from the Pink Panther?

Clouseau: "Do you have a lee-cense, for the minkey?"

...actually, it's a very familiar scenario.

I imagine Isa in the Clouseau role, all high falluting quoting 'city ordnance' and rules and point of order and generally looking down his nose at the peasant on the street.

The blind organ grinder with his minkey tie him up in conversational knots, meanwhile in the background the bank is getting robbed and the thieves run off with the loot (holy grail?)

Beautiful.

[HTG]

2 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

One off cup games. Auchinleck lost to Colts etc. You can' just jump through leagues only an idiot  would think that

You can if there is an effective integration and a will to make it work. 

You guys will be playing in a parallel league structure next season because there is a will to make it work.

You could just as easily have been playing in tier 7 because the existing clubs decided not to go parallel but instead wanted you to work your way up one or two clubs at a time. 

This is a timing issue - nothing more than that. 

But effective integration will need leadership so we could be fucked. 

And it's a wee bit disingenuous to suggest that you can't judge ability in one off cup games. We've played over a dozen of these games and lost one after a replay.  It's blindingly obvious that teams like Linlithgow and Bo'ness will enhance a pyramid if/when there is some leadership to resolve the integration process.

If we don't see that leadership then I'll retire disgracefully from football. 

[Goalie Hamish]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

...actually, it's a very familiar scenario.

I imagine Isa in the Clouseau role, all high falluting quoting 'city ordnance' and rules and point of order and generally looking down his nose at the peasant on the street.

The blind organ grinder with his minkey tie him up in conversational knots, meanwhile in the background the bank is getting robbed and the thieves run off with the loot (holy grail?)

Beautiful.

[AlanCamelonfan]

4 minutes ago, HTG said:

You can if there is an effective integration and a will to make it work. 

You guys will be playing in a parallel league structure next season because there is a will to make it work.

You could just as easily have been playing in tier 7 because the existing clubs decided not to go parallel but instead wanted you to work your way up one or two clubs at a time. 

This is a timing issue - nothing more than that. 

But effective integration will need leadership so we could be fucked. 

And it's a wee bit disingenuous to suggest that you can't judge ability in one off cup games. We've played over a dozen of these games and lost one after a replay.  It's blindingly obvious that teams like Linlithgow and Bo'ness will enhance a pyramid if/when there is some leadership to resolve the integration process.

If we don't see that leadership then I'll retire disgracefully from football. 

They would make it better but still can' pick and choose when you want to join

[HTG]

3 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

They would make it better but still can' pick and choose when you want to join

You did. And you've been accommodated at a higher level than you might have expected given that there were already 13 tier 6 clubs in situ. 

It really isn't beyond the authorities to make this work. As has been said on here before, it's inconceivable that the SJFA (and SFA for that matter) can line up the juniors but stick some clubs two tiers down purely as a result of geography. 

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, HTG said:

You did. And you've been accommodated at a higher level than you might have expected given that there were already 13 tier 6 clubs in situ. 

It really isn't beyond the authorities to make this work. As has been said on here before, it's inconceivable that the SJFA (and SFA for that matter) can line up the juniors but stick some clubs two tiers down purely as a result of geography. 

Nobody has been lined up at any level yet,  what the now departed interim SFA CEO said and what the PWG eventually agree on could be two very different things.

I think we have to dismiss these assertions from TJ that "tier 6 minimum" is happening and let the PWG do their work, it may take time though.

[tommyboy]

27 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

...actually, it's a very familiar scenario.

I imagine Isa in the Clouseau role, all high falluting quoting 'city ordnance' and rules and point of order and generally looking down his nose at the peasant on the street.

The blind organ grinder with his minkey tie him up in conversational knots, meanwhile in the background the bank is getting robbed and the thieves run off with the loot (holy grail?)

Beautiful.

Classic! 

 

[Hillonearth]

1 hour ago, Jason King said:

 

Hamilton are in the Premier league, Livingston are 3 games away from joining them - neither of which I would consider to be well supported teams in relation to their locality. But they have used the options available to them at the top of the pyramid structure to improve overall as clubs.

As noted above, there is far more to moving to the EOS than crowds and income - West clubs have been criminally slow in the uptake of moving forward.

Can’t move if there’s nowhere realistic and credible to move to, which has been and remains the case until a WoS league comes into play. 

To the best of my knowledge no West club even sniffed around the possibility of going SoS.

[honestly united]

14 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

Next season the English tier 7  divisions which you have on a par with SPFL2 will increase from 3 to 4 and tier 8 from 6 to 7 (and probably later to 8). Many inEngland also believe that travel is excessive at part-time level.

So the english equivalent of SPFL 2 will split england in 4, or cover an approx population of 13/14 million people? So twice the population that the SPFL2 will cover? So in essence the SPFL2 whould actually cover an area twice the size / population it does currently to compare with england? Not actually less

[Baxter's Nutmeg]

20 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Can’t move if there’s nowhere realistic and credible to move to, which has been and remains the case until a WoS league comes into play. 

To the best of my knowledge no West club even sniffed around the possibility of going SoS.

Clydebank did.

[Hillonearth]

3 minutes ago, Baxter's Nutmeg said:

Clydebank did.

Perhaps they did on a cursory basis. 

And then applied on a deferred basis to the EoS.

[tombrown]

Am kinda bewildered that no w.o.s.junior club has not joined the s.o.s.and take a chance of winning it like kelty did.after all the derogetory negitive things that were said about the standard of the league.or are they going to wait to see the p.w.g.out come tommorow.

[Burnie_man]

Decided to try and put a bit of meat to the bones of how an integrated set-up in the East may pan out for season 2019/20 and move the conversation away from monkeys.  This could be way off the mark as there is a 101 ways to go about integrating the leagues, and also I had to make a number of assumptions and guesses;

• Top 6 in each EoS section next season are guaranteed a top division place, with Dundonald added, for 2019/20, the remaining 3 vacancies to be filled by top 3 Junior Superleague from Lothians/Fife.
• Two places for LL up for grabs, Bonnyrigg and Hill of Beath win the play-offs in 2018/19, Gala and Vale of Leithen are relegated (sorry)
• ERJFA is dissolved and all clubs move to EoS
• Tayside and Perthshire clubs are not included and integrate with the North.

The EoS First Division for 2019/20 could therefore look like;

Gala Fairydean Rovers (relegated LL)

Vale of Leithen (relegated LL)

Dundonald Bluebell (deferred application)

Camelon Juniors  (top 6 2018/19)

Musselburgh Ath (top 6 2018/19)

Haddington Ath (top 6 2018/19)

Blackburn United (top 6 2018/19)

Tranent Juniors (top 6 2018/19)

Dalkeith Thistle (top 6 2018/19)

Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale (top 6 2018/19)

Leith Athletic (top 6 2018/19)

Preston Athletic (top 6 2018/19)

Edinburgh United (top 6 2018/19)

Linlithgow Rose (top 3 Superleague)

Penicuik Athletic (top 3 Superleague)

Bo’ness United (top 3 Superleague)

The remaining EoS members plus the Lothians and Fife newcomers split into 3 equal sections of 13 or 14 clubs for 2019/20, with the winners of each section replacing the three bottom clubs in the First Division for 2020/21. The next 4 finishers in each section (12) plus the 3 relegated clubs form the Second Division (plus one via best 6th placed or something) to form a 16 team league.  There would then be 3 up/down between First and Second Division.  That would leave circa 24 clubs to form two regional divisions at tier 8 (or Third and Fourth Divisions at tier 8 and 9), with vacancies for new clubs eg Musselburgh Windsor, St.Bernards etc.

So for 2020/21 you have an EoS First Division of 16 clubs with top 2 entering LL play-offs, bottom three relegated. EoS Second Division of 16 clubs with top 3 promoted and bottom 2/3/4 relegated depending on set-up of the lower two divisions. 2-3 seasons from 2019/2020 most clubs will have found their level, and some will have made their way into the LL.

Whether any of that (or something similar) could be negotiated by the PWG in time for the SJFA EGM I have my doubts, but if so it does provide the opportunity for current Superleague clubs who aren’t moving, to enter at tier 6 for 2019/20.

[Auld Heid]

You can if there is an effective integration and a will to make it work. 
You guys will be playing in a parallel league structure next season because there is a will to make it work.
You could just as easily have been playing in tier 7 because the existing clubs decided not to go parallel but instead wanted you to work your way up one or two clubs at a time. 
This is a timing issue - nothing more than that. 
But effective integration will need leadership so we could be fucked. 
And it's a wee bit disingenuous to suggest that you can't judge ability in one off cup games. We've played over a dozen of these games and lost one after a replay.  It's blindingly obvious that teams like Linlithgow and Bo'ness will enhance a pyramid if/when there is some leadership to resolve the integration process.
If we don't see that leadership then I'll retire disgracefully from football. 

Linlithgow have made no commitment to anything.

Any AGM proposal will need to be compelling given the negativity of some vociferous opponents.

[tombrown]

Think the leadership has to come from lithgie and boness.not to forget about all they a achived in the past.but what they can contribute and achive now.that goes for the others.2 leagues of 16/18.just think of how good that would be.

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, tombrown said:

Am kinda bewildered that no w.o.s.junior club has not joined the s.o.s.and take a chance of winning it like kelty did.after all the derogetory negitive things that were said about the standard of the league.or are they going to wait to see the p.w.g.out come tommorow.

For the bigger ones, too much glue attaching them to existing derby matches. Tradition. Junior Cup. "If I wanted Senior football, I'd go and watch...". Take your pick. I've heard them all.

[gwd440]

48 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Decided to try and put a bit of meat to the bones of how an integrated set-up in the East may pan out for season 2019/20 and move the conversation away from monkeys.  This could be way off the mark as there is a 101 ways to go about integrating the leagues, and also I had to make a number of assumptions and guesses;

• Top 6 in each EoS section next season are guaranteed a top division place, with Dundonald added, for 2019/20, the remaining 3 vacancies to be filled by top 3 Junior Superleague from Lothians/Fife.
• Two places for LL up for grabs, Bonnyrigg and Hill of Beath win the play-offs in 2018/19, Gala and Vale of Leithen are relegated (sorry)
• ERJFA is dissolved and all clubs move to EoS
• Tayside and Perthshire clubs are not included and integrate with the North.

 

I think that's pretty close to what the PWG should come up with. The only things I would change would be:

Top 5 in each EoS section plus top 5 Lothian/Fife Juniors.  Extra place can be filled depending on number of teams relegated from LL - maybe a playoff between next eligible clubs.

Top EoS division will probably be called the Premier Division.

There are some Junior clubs who want nothing to do with the pyramid. Could these remain in a much reduced ERJFA, along with the Tayside & Perthshire clubs until the 'northern question' is resolved. If they decide to join the pyramid at a later date, it would be at the bottom.

I reckon there would be about 30 clubs below the new EoS Premier. These could be split into 2 equal leagues for one season with a view to creating Divs 1 & 2 for the following season.

It would be a shame to lose the Junior Cup, or have a devalued version of it.  It would definitely make sense to invite the ex-Juniors and their new Senior colleagues to enter.

 

[cmontheloknow]

2 minutes ago, gwd440 said:

I think that's pretty close to what the PWG should come up with. The only things I would change would be:

Top 5 in each EoS section plus top 5 Lothian/Fife Juniors.  Extra place can be filled depending on number of teams relegated from LL - maybe a playoff between next eligible clubs.

Top EoS division will probably be called the Premier Division.

There are some Junior clubs who want nothing to do with the pyramid. Could these remain in a much reduced ERJFA, along with the Tayside & Perthshire clubs until the 'northern question' is resolved. If they decide to join the pyramid at a later date, it would be at the bottom.

I reckon there would be about 30 clubs below the new EoS Premier. These could be split into 2 equal leagues for one season with a view to creating Divs 1 & 2 for the following season.

It would be a shame to lose the Junior Cup, or have a devalued version of it.  It would definitely make sense to invite the ex-Juniors and their new Senior colleagues to enter.

 

I think it will be an all or nothing shift. What will be left behind will be emaciated.

[holme]

16 hours ago, GordonS said:

One of the teams has a higher average attendance this year than four teams in the Scottish Premiership, so I don't know what point you think you're making.

There will be thousands fewer than there would have been if they're charged a reasonable price. For non-league clubs to literally price supporters out of a huge game is a fcking disgrace. On that, surely to God, we can all agree.

The other one has an average of 655