Junior football, what is the future?

[Marshmallo]

If Luncarty's ground is North of the boundary then they should absolutely have to play in the Northern half of the pyramid. It's madness to suggest otherwise.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

I'd love to see the Hoose back in the East. Great club, but it's laughable that some on here are somehow against them taking the west route. They are 5 miles from Shotts. Its hardly Eyemouth applying.

Their travel would be far less in the WOS than the EoS.

That said I hope they come east as it would be a great addition wihh hopefully the rest too.

[Doonhamer1969]

so

15 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Bonnyton, playing in front of 20 fans, would get absolutely ragdolled in the WRJFA  top flight with their current team. They would get single figure points. Depending on the make up of a WoS next season I would be astonished if they didn't get relegated.

There are no competitor leagues in the North for the NCL to go in at tier 6 as it stands. The SoS will have a geographical overlap with a new WoS. Why should a Dumfries and Galloway league with double figure attendances and a shocking standard of football remain at that level?

The fact you're beating off over Threave beating Burntisland by a single goal tells you everything about the comparative standards. People love to put the boot into the Juniors but the SoS being at tier 6 is a historic accident of coincidence and there is no reason that should continue. 

1. I aint beating off.

2. Im not putting the boot into the juniors.

3. By default, Tier 7 EoS must be a pub league too if 3 SoS teams cant beat their teams away from home.

4. There's no geographical overlap, apart from 2 anomalies, Kello and Bonnyton.

5. There shouldnt be a geographical overlap in future.  Performing some sort of geographical genocide on the South of Scotland is not acceptable behaviour. 

6. if the teams are naff, they wont get into the LL via a play off, so no problem. Nobody in the west/new WoSL will be disadvantaged by the SoS remaining at Tier 6.

7. Its no worse than Tier 7 league, so shunting it down to Tier 8 is just nonsense.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Doonhamer1969

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Black & Red Socks said:

I really don’t understand the argument you’re putting forward? Just because clubs haven’t taken advantage of picking and choosing previously doesn’t mean they won’t in the future should the opportunity present itself.

A simple statement saying WRSJFA = WoSFL and ERSJFA = EoSFL takes care of the matter. As I’ve already stated, I rather suspect this will already be in the minds of those who will be tasked with making the WoSFL happen.

Anyone can apply but just because they can doesn't mean they do. I'm noticing nobody has suggested a Fife club applying to the WoSFL, or a Borders club, or an East Lothian team. They're all free to apply. So why's nobody suggesting them? Burntisland never cared about journeying down to the Borders all those years. Now they get Tier 6 football and a change of scenery.

Then there's a next stage in all of this. Just because you can apply doesn't mean you get accepted. EoS over the last few years rejected Glenrothes Strollers, Syngenta, Musselburgh Windsor or St Bernards, and Selkirk Reserves. I might be missing someone. Just because a club applies to your league doesn't mean you have to accept them.

[Marshmallo]

"Geographical genocide" grow up. Your clubs can apply to the WoS or accept a drop to tier 8 if the Dog and Duck want to continue to only play the Red Lion from 4 miles down the road.

[Doonhamer1969]

14 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

From memory their first attempt was largely predicated on the French who didn't arrive en Ecosse until Octoberish, thus meaning they were reliant on ammy players filling in until then. Even then, they came second behind St Cuthbert's who declined promotion and 15 points or so ahead of third place.

While they didn't win it at a canter, they certainly came second at one.

St Cuthberts didint decline promotion. The LL denied promotion to them because a fire escape was' in the wrong place'.

[Doonhamer1969]

1 minute ago, Marshmallo said:

"Geographical genocide" grow up. Your clubs can apply to the WoS or accept a drop to tier 8 if the Dog and Duck want to continue to only play the Red Lion from 4 miles down the road.

You dont get to decide ,luckily.

How many SoS games did you say you had attended ?

[Doonhamer1969]

3 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

"Geographical genocide" grow up. Your clubs can apply to the WoS or accept a drop to tier 8 if the Dog and Duck want to continue to only play the Red Lion from 4 miles down the road.

Well what else would you call it ?

You want to wipe it off the map and kid on Lockerbie and Moffat are in the 'west' of Scotland.

Geography clearly not your strong point.

[LongTimeLurker]

3 minutes ago, Marten said:

....And why even mention Tweedmouth?

Because it highlights how Scottish fitba doesn't do logic so much, it goes for path of least resistance pragmatism. The reason a lot of people see no huge problem with Fauldhouse going west is that if it helps get them into the pyramid then the pragmatic view would be why get hung up about whether a ground is a few hundred yards into West Lothian?

[Black & Red Socks]

Anyone can apply but just because they can doesn't mean they do. I'm noticing nobody has suggested a Fife club applying to the WoSFL, or a Borders club, or an East Lothian team. They're all free to apply. So why's nobody suggesting them? Burntisland never cared about journeying down to the Borders all those years. Now they get Tier 6 football and a change of scenery.
Then there's a next stage in all of this. Just because you can apply doesn't mean you get accepted. EoS over the last few years rejected Glenrothes Strollers, Syngenta, Musselburgh Windsor or St Bernards, and Selkirk Reserves. I might be missing someone. Just because a club applies to your league doesn't mean you have to accept them.

I’m still absolutely none the wiser on your direction of travel here, why leave application open to manipulation and the possibility of a geographical crossover when a simple rule prevents any such potential mess?

[Doonhamer1969]

21 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

From memory their first attempt was largely predicated on the French who didn't arrive en Ecosse until Octoberish, thus meaning they were reliant on ammy players filling in until then. Even then, they came second behind St Cuthbert's who declined promotion and 15 points or so ahead of third place.

While they didn't win it at a canter, they certainly came second at one.

Thus.....

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/st-cuthbert-wanderers-explains-didnt-8099105

 

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, BS7 said:

If you haven’t seen these, it’s a helpful visualization of non league Scottish football:

https://www.easymapmaker.com/map/nonleaguescotland

Couldn't be less relevant, but I hate that map. It's making my OCD itch. Those indicators should be pointing at the locations, but the locations are actually under the dots in the middle.

Giving me the creeps.

[San Starko Rover]

Can’t blame JC for looking at every option on behalf of Fauldhouse they need to look at all the options. Personally I think we need a fixed boundary between East and West and I’d be surprised if it doesn’t happen as EOS will want to protect their interests as for WOS and SOS I think the ambitious SOS teams should be joining the WOS and the remaining SOS teams volunteering to feed the WOS at a lower tier more appropriate to the ambitions and size of these clubs. This is no disrespect to the SOS but do 90% of their teams really want to stay at tier 6 playing off against the far stronger leagues? WOS should automatically accept any SOS who want to remain tier 6 so no team is forced to drop down.

[Guest]

And how many actually think that way?
"Hey, if we go and join the WoSFL we get to go into Tier 6 of the Scottish Football Pyramid. It was such a wonderous life changing experience last year. I want another taste of it. Don't care if we end up in Tier 7 the following year with a bunch of Ayrshire clubs. If that happens we'll just move back to the EoSFL."
And it is addressed by the fact that a club actually has to apply. Then be accepted.

You seem to be missing the point or I am maybe not being overly clear.

Given it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it wont and it certainly doesn't mean you dont plan for it.

Whilst I accept there is an application process, why not save everyone some time and effort and state that clubs from say the east stay east, clubs in the west stay west....a bit like a boundary line which could mean clubs who are positioned north of the line go north or thise positioned south of the line go south.

And if you think there aren't clubs playing in the sjfa or eos who wouldn't try and exploit the lack of boundaries for their own progression then I'd suggest you might not be a cynical person.

Me, I like to search through every decision known to human kind and believe that 95% of decisions made are based on what's best for the individual, the company they work for, the business they run, the people they represent or indeed the football team they work for/support.

[FairWeatherFan]

14 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

I’m still absolutely none the wiser on your direction of travel here, why leave application open to manipulation and the possibility of a geographical crossover when a simple rule prevents any such potential mess?

 

2 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

You seem to be missing the point or I am maybe not being overly clear.

Given it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it wont and it certainly doesn't mean you dont plan for it.

Whilst I accept there is an application process, why not save everyone some time and effort and state that clubs from say the east stay east, clubs in the west stay west....a bit like a boundary line which could mean clubs who are positioned north of the line go north or thise positioned south of the line go south.

And if you think there aren't clubs playing in the sjfa or eos who wouldn't try and exploit the lack of boundaries for their own progression then I'd suggest you might not be a cynical person.

Me, I like to search through every decision known to human kind and believe that 95% of decisions made are based on what's best for the individual, the company they work for, the business they run, the people they represent or indeed the football team they work for/support.

Going by the numbers that are mentioning there interest in discussing the WoSFL there is going to be a single solitary season where clubs can apply to be Tier 6 in the WoSFL. That's this year 2020. Then the WoSFL like the EoSFL might well have divisions Tier 7, 8 or 9. Who knows. From then on the lower down a pyramid you go the more regional it becomes and certainly the fewer resources available. So the less interest you have in being a geographic outlier from the rest of the teams in your league.

In this single season where there's a perceived advantage to be played you've still got the SoSFL to consider. So you can't just do a boundary between the two leagues, it has to be between the three. So are we forcing Bonnyton Thistle and Caledonian Braves SoS into the WoSFL, Kello Rovers into the SoSFL?

The lack of a fixed boundary is a 5 month issue. An issue entirely dependent on clubs choosing to apply and then actually being accepted.

[Guest]

Going by the numbers that are mentioning there interest in discussing the WoSFL there is going to be a single solitary season where clubs can apply to be Tier 6 in the WoSFL. That's this year 2020. Then the WoSFL like the EoSFL might well have divisions Tier 7, 8 or 9. Who knows. From then on the lower down a pyramid you go the more regional it becomes and certainly the fewer resources available. So the less interest you have in being a geographic outlier from the rest of the teams in your league.
In this single season where there's a perceived advantage to be played you've still got the SoSFL to consider. So you can't just do a boundary between the two leagues, it has to be between the three. So are we forcing Bonnyton Thistle and Caledonian Braves SoS into the WoSFL, Kello Rovers into the SoSFL?
The lack of a fixed boundary is a 5 month issue. An issue entirely dependent on clubs choosing to apply and then actually being accepted.

What about next season fair? If there are only 12 clubs who move? If there are another 12 and they do conferences the following season? What's to stop it then?

It isn't a perceived advantage. It would be a clubs clever use of an anomaly, why create an environment where it can happen when you can just say sos remains as is, east juniors go east, eos clubs stay eos, west juniors go west (including southern flying clubs) then ask the sos where they see their future. And to be fair clubs could also try and join the sos, which would also fall I to the same category unless there is valid reason for switching to the Dumfries based league.

[Spyro]

8 hours ago, The Mantis said:

@Spyro : It's time .
Was JC all for jumping last year but the committee were for staying?

Don’t get me started!!!

Only just home from work and catching up with the last 7 pages... again saying nothing, as much as I want to! You (and a few others) know what I’ve always believed and still do but it’s not about me (or JC), it something we will (hopefully!) speak honestly about together and deal with the FACTS. A lot of what you said about your own personal experiences are ringing true, the last few months have been an eye opener to say the least!

Edited February 12, 2020 by Spyro

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, G4Mac said:

What about next season fair? If there are only 12 clubs who move? If there are another 12 and they do conferences the following season? What's to stop it then?

It isn't a perceived advantage. It would be a clubs clever use of an anomaly, why create an environment where it can happen when you can just say sos remains as is, east juniors go east, eos clubs stay eos, west juniors go west (including southern flying clubs) then ask the sos where they see their future. And to be fair clubs could also try and join the sos, which would also fall I to the same category unless there is valid reason for switching to the Dumfries based league.

Only 12 clubs then 6 clubs to stop it. EoSFL rules require(d) a majority of members to accept applicants. That might even be after having to pass a sift of agreed ground criteria. So if the vote goes 6-6 they wouldn't get in. Just because you can apply for something doesn't mean you get accepted.

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

You got something against Lockerbie ?

Point is, its not a pub league, no worse than Tier 7.

Why should it be penalised because of geography ?

Bonnyton havent won it yet, and yet elsewhere on this thread folk are talking about them being in the same league as Auchinleck Talbot at Tier 6.

Gonna be a hell of a jump for a 'pub league' team.

Ps check some of the other posts re the North. Folk talking about NCL at Tier 6.....

Threave Rovers would run up a cricket score in Tain.

Even if the SoS was a fantastically high standard, it doesn't make sense long-term to have one Tier 6 league representing Fife, Stirling, Falkirk, Clackmannanshire, Perthshire, East Lothian, West Lothian, Midlothian, Edinburgh and the Borders, another representing Glasgow, North Ayrshire, East Ayrshire, South Ayrshire, North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, East Renfrewshire, Inverclyde, East Dunbartonshire, West Dunbartonshire and Argyll & Bute, while another represents only Dumfries & Galloway. That is an enormous geographical imbalance.

 

 

1 hour ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

St Cuthberts didint decline promotion. The LL denied promotion to them because a fire escape was' in the wrong place'.

The Lowland League denied promotion because St Cuthbert were unlicensed. They don't control who does and doesn't get licenses - that's the SFA's decision.

Edited February 11, 2020 by craigkillie

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Black & Red Socks said:

when a simple statement saying WRSJFA = WoSFL and ERSJFA = EoSFL takes care of the matter?

It's not difficult really.  Keeping it simple.........

Anyway, Fauldhouse haven't even decided to leave the Juniors yet.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Burnie_man