Junior football, what is the future?

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

And I find it ridiculous that part-time football clubs with average attendances in the hundreds play national level football. I could call people childish for thinking it makes them special or important or relevant or ambitious.

Or people could just maybe stop insulting each other and respect the fact that not everyone likes the same things? You're fine regularly travelling several hours round trip to watch the same teams four times a season for over £20 a match. Great, I hope it works out well for you. Lots of other football supporters don't. Neither is superior. Live and let live, man.

 

What about in england non league teams have to travel from the north to the middle of the country with crowds of hundreds which is probably the same travel time as heading north. Darlington to salford city was a league game and is 1 hr 53 mins travel time not exactly a lot different to spfl league 2. noone batting an eye down there.

[GordonS]

3 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

What about in england non league teams have to travel from the north to the middle of the country with crowds of hundreds which is probably the same travel time as heading north. Darlington to salford city was a league game and is 1 hr 53 mins travel time not exactly a lot different to spfl league 2. noone batting an eye down there.

Darlington's average crowd is 1,400 and that's down on last season. But are Darlington supposed to be a good example of a football club??? Haven't they been in administration three times, wound up once, and have a ludicrously huge stadium they can't use, that has 25,000 seats but only 10,000 can be filled?

But that's missing the point. If Darlington fans are fine with that, then great. Each to their own. No football fan should be telling another what they should want.

[Khufu2]

9 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

What about in england non league teams have to travel from the north to the middle of the country with crowds of hundreds which is probably the same travel time as heading north. Darlington to salford city was a league game and is 1 hr 53 mins travel time not exactly a lot different to spfl league 2. noone batting an eye down there.

There is a massive difference between the 6th tier in England and the 4th in Scotland.

 

Darlington average crowd 1,500. Salford 1,600. 

[Kilbowie Benches]

24 minutes ago, GordonS said:

In terms of putting a star on a shirt? Of course not. 

Like Clydebank you mean? 

This "highest level" pish is boring btw. If football was just about the highest level none of us would follow our non-league teams.

If you're calling every non-league club in Scotland a "diddy team", which you seem to be doing, you don't belong on this forum.

Try reading.

Putting stars on their shirt and then not wanting to progress is frankly ridiculous,its the old big fish small pond stuff.

We aren't very good but at least we are ambitious.

I live in Clydebank and want the team from the town where I live to play at the highest level possible,why would I follow someone else?

A diddy team is one that doesn't want to better themselves.

[The Moonster]

8 minutes ago, GordonS said:

And I find it ridiculous that part-time football clubs with average attendances in the hundreds play national level football. I could call people childish for thinking it makes them special or important or relevant or ambitious.

Or people could just maybe stop insulting each other and respect the fact that not everyone likes the same things? You're fine regularly travelling several hours round trip to watch the same teams four times a season for over £20 a match. Great, I hope it works out well for you. Lots of other football supporters don't. Neither is superior. Live and let live, man.

 

So ridiculous that half the clubs in the country are able to sustain it? That doesn't sound like something that's ridiculous to me.

I understand people are different and like different things but you cannot throw up "it takes us a few hours to get there" as a serious hurdle that clubs need to jump. It's just such a non-issue. 

And will I f**k live and let live, this is the internet - serious business.

 

[Khufu2]

17 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Heres probably a better example. Its currently college baseball season in the states, UCF from Orlando have fixtures all over, West Virginia, Chicago, Texas. These students are all classed as amateur athletes, so it’s not even minor league the equivalent of our non-league where players get paid.

I’ve picked this team because they are a middle ranking school with some success but no where near the resources of bigger schools like UCLA etc. Their closest game is 50 miles away.

 

So im sorry I just dont buy the argument that Scotland is too big for national leagues at level 3/4 on the pyramid. I’d rather that levels 1-4 were condensed into 3 but that’s another argument.

But this is university sport. Funded by universities.  Probably flying to fixtures. No away fans. No work to go to for the those involved on the the day of the match and the day after. 

 

There is absolutely no comparison.

[Khufu2]

26 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I remember similar moaning when I was on the Dumbarton supporters bus last Wednesday evening travelling up to Arbroath. Oh wait, no I don't, because we're not a bunch of children that find it utterly ridiculous that a football team playing in a national competition might need to travel the length of the nation. The attendance was 892 as well.

What exactly is it about a few hours travelling to watch your team that you find mad?

 

It's not really the fans I'm concerned about. It's expecting part-time footballers to be doing this kind of nonsense on a regular basis. People who have a job and then are expected to spend 7 hours travelling to play 90 minutes of midweek football.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Khufu2 said:

But this is university sport. Funded by universities.  Probably flying to fixtures. No away fans. No work to go to for the those involved on the the day of the match and the day after. 

 

There is absolutely no comparison.

Of course, professional senior teams within the SPFL pyramid don't get any funding or sponsorship whatsoever. They just need to rattle buckets until they can cobble together enough cash to hire 11 rickshaws to carry the squad to the next game.

Fucking seriously guys, think about what you're arguing here.

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

There is a massive difference between the 6th tier in England and the 4th in Scotland.

 

Darlington average crowd 1,500. Salford 1,600. 

yes now but wasn't the case when they played two leagues below where they are now when the bbc documentary was shot.  in scottish leagues theirs more local games than these teams will have. They were also semi pro at the time

[Khufu2]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

yes now but wasn't the case when they played two leagues below where they are now when the bbc documentary was shot.  in scottish leagues theirs more local games than these teams will have. They were also semi pro at the time

We are talking about people who are in full time jobs, spending 7 hours, probably in a minibus to fulfill an SPFL2 fixture in the middle of a Scottish winter.. Not a bunch of students flying to fixtures. The non-playing budgets of the US colleges will totally overshadow those of SPFL2,  most of whom exist on a shoe-string.

 

If you think the two are comparable you are totally mistaken.

[The Moonster]

2 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

It's not really the fans I'm concerned about. It's expecting part-time footballers to be doing this kind of nonsense on a regular basis. People who have a job and then are expected to spend 7 hours travelling to play 90 minutes of midweek football.

Here's a wee news flash for you - football is a job for these guys too, and they get paid well in the SPFL considering the hours they put in (less than 10 hours for most). They don't need to play football at that level if it doesn't work for their life. The vast majority of them do though because they love football and love the money they get for it.  All this crying about "the poor fans" or the poor players" is a complete straw man.

Edited May 8, 2018 by The Moonster

[RedLichtie86]

It's not really the fans I'm concerned about. It's expecting part-time footballers to be doing this kind of nonsense on a regular basis. People who have a job and then are expected to spend 7 hours travelling to play 90 minutes of midweek football.

By the time any of these Junior teams reach a level where they are expected to travel to Elgin, Stranraer, Peterhead etc on a midweek night, the club will be earning a minimum of £35000 in prize money just for finishing last.

Im sure the players wont begrudge the odd game in the middle of knowhere as they will be playing at a higher standard.

[Marten]

15 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

There is a massive difference between the 6th tier in England and the 4th in Scotland.

 

Darlington average crowd 1,500. Salford 1,600. 

Maybe tier 7 is a better comparison, but there are still massive journeys there for teams with little support. Halesowen Town v Workington is a journey of over 4 hours. Average travel in that division is likely a fair bit more than in SPFL 2.

[vikingTON]

33 minutes ago, GordonS said:

And I find it ridiculous that part-time football clubs with average attendances in the hundreds play national level football. I could call people childish for thinking it makes them special or important or relevant or ambitious.

Or people could just maybe stop insulting each other and respect the fact that not everyone likes the same things? You're fine regularly travelling several hours round trip to watch the same teams four times a season for over £20 a match. Great, I hope it works out well for you. Lots of other football supporters don't. Neither is superior. Live and let live, man.

 

The number of people who have such a massive problem about travelling and want their club to stay in a cul-de-sac league as a result - arrogantly assuming, btw, that their club would get anywhere near the national level of the game - is dwindling as rapidly as the number of clubs in the Junior setup.

The game is moving on regardless and you're just going to have to deal with that. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by vikingTON

[Khufu2]

4 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

yes now but wasn't the case when they played two leagues below where they are now when the bbc documentary was shot.  in scottish leagues theirs more local games than these teams will have. They were also semi pro at the time

Darlington-Salford 2 hours exactly.  And Darlington are/were very much an outlier.

 

Annan-Peterhead 4hrs 37, Berwick-Elgin 4hrs 30 each way.

[HTG]

17 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Darlington's average crowd is 1,400 and that's down on last season. But are Darlington supposed to be a good example of a football club??? Haven't they been in administration three times, wound up once, and have a ludicrously huge stadium they can't use, that has 25,000 seats but only 10,000 can be filled?

But that's missing the point. If Darlington fans are fine with that, then great. Each to their own. No football fan should be telling another what they should want.

That's fine Gordon but you and I support the same club and we have very different views on what we want for the club. If Linlithgow Rose were to secure a place in the national league structure I'd look at that as the biggest achievement in our history and I'd absolutely want that for us. It isn't perfect but it is what it is. 

I understand that older supporters will regard the escapades of 1965 as the biggest achievement in our history though and I completely understand that given how close we were to closing the doors just a few years earlier. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

But this is university sport. Funded by universities.  Probably flying to fixtures. No away fans. No work to go to for the those involved on the the day of the match and the day after. 
 
There is absolutely no comparison.

Its small budget amateur sport, the college I used as an example is not one with the budget of flying to every fixture, they take buses when travelling to Florida and nearby states, to put it in perspective Florida is twice the size of Scotland.
They recently overhauled their baseball stadium at a value similar to that being used to develop junior and non league grounds, 2,000 capacity baseball stadia with similar facilities to Spartans over here. Its an entirely reasonable comparison.
Your point about work and away fans is pure guess work, I’ve travelled in away days with UCF and been amongst hundreds of fans traipsing to the other side of Florida for a game.

[Khufu2]

3 minutes ago, Marten said:

Maybe tier 7 is a better comparison, but there are still massive journeys there for teams with little support. Halesowen Town v Workington is a journey of over 4 hours. Average travel in that division is likely a fair bit more than in SPFL 2.

And next season there will be an extra division at both tiers 7 and 8  in England to reduce the footprint of the divisions. Of course there will always be outliers in leagues - Truro, KIngs Lynn, Workington come to mind in England, but SPFL2 , a 10-club division has Peterhead, Elgin, Annan, Berwick - nearly half the division is outliers! Why on earth would any club aspire to be in such a division? It makes absolutely no sense at all. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

We are talking about people who are in full time jobs, spending 7 hours, probably in a minibus to fulfill an SPFL2 fixture in the middle of a Scottish winter.. Not a bunch of students flying to fixtures. The non-playing budgets of the US colleges will totally overshadow those of SPFL2,  most of whom exist on a shoe-string.
 
If you think the two are comparable you are totally mistaken.

You’d be correct if i was comparing the budget of Duke/UCLA etc.
Even looking at minor league sport in the states at any level, football, american football, hockey, basketball, baseball these are clubs which are also run on a shoestring budget, the players are paid a pittance by comparison and the clubs don’t get the riches of the major league teams.
It’s already been said that midweek fixtures to Elgin don’t have to happen until March if necessary so you’re point is bollocks. You’re more likely to have several games called off going to play a Scottish Junior Cup tie in the North as you are to get a midweek trip to Elgin. Its pure scare story nonsense.

[GordonS]

12 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

Putting stars on their shirt and then not wanting to progress is frankly ridiculous,its the old big fish small pond stuff.

We aren't very good but at least we are ambitious.

I live in Clydebank and want the team from the town where I live to play at the highest level possible,why would I follow someone else?

A diddy team is one that doesn't want to better themselves.

Folk who live in Clydebank could easily support Yoker, Clydebank, Partick Thistle, Celtic or Rangers. The one you settle with suits the sort of football fan you are.

The whole concept of "ambition" in watching 11 guys you don't know endeavour to win a sporting match is silly, really. Ambition is for jobs and families and education and athletes and businesses and economies. For me, going to watch a football game is about enjoyment. We can judge each other for our respective preferences if you like, or we can just respect the differences.

There's really no need for insults.

9 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

So ridiculous that half the clubs in the country are able to sustain it? That doesn't sound like something that's ridiculous to me.

I understand people are different and like different things but you cannot throw up "it takes us a few hours to get there" as a serious hurdle that clubs need to jump. It's just such a non-issue. 

And will I f**k live and let live, this is the internet - serious business.

 

IIRC there are 20 part-time clubs in nationwide leagues. If you think there are only 40 clubs in Scotland, you're in the wrong forum. As for "sustain" it, I think we ought to be aiming higher.

Travel is a serious issue for players with jobs. Linlithgow Rose could only take 11 players to a Scottish Cup tie in Wick last season because it was midweek and rescheduled several times. They listed substitutes who weren't even there. In a year with a bad winter there can be a lot of midweek games and it's a problem for players. Having said that, I don't think they've ever been surveyed on what they want - that could be interesting.

As a fan, I'll travel anywhere for a Scottish Cup tie, but I'll generally not bother for a league game somewhere I've been to before if it's more than a hour or so away. I'm sure that's pretty typical.