A Photographic History Of Scottish Football

[kennie makevin]

14 hours ago, jagfox said:

I didn't see him for Thistle but certainly did for Scotland. You don't get 53 international caps and hundreds of top flight appearances by being "hopeless". 

You did if your name was Alan Rough and the international caps were for Scotland. He was quite simply the worst 'international' goalkeeper I have ever seen (and I remember Stewart Kennedy).

[Squirrelhumper]

14 hours ago, jagfox said:

I didn't see him for Thistle but certainly did for Scotland. You don't get 53 international caps and hundreds of top flight appearances by being "hopeless". 

You do when the competition for the jersey are equally as shite. 

A real dark time in terms of quality of Scottish goalies. Kennedy, Rough el al. 

 

[Eednud]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I thought they played Cologne in the first round.

Was that called a preliminary game or a qualifier or something?

It was the Preliminary Round and seems that’s what they had from season 2 1956/57 until 1966/67.

[PossilYM]

10 hours ago, Sugar_Army said:

No idea where I remember this from (so it could be a lot of sh!te) but apparently one of the factors of the name change away from Hibernian was also the fact the area of Lochee where many catholics hailed from already had clubs in the form of Lochee Harp. Lochee United, Dundee Violet and according to wiki, Lochee Emmet (which O had never heard of until now).  

Another strange one about Lochee was the gang colours of the Lochee Fleet.  Red and blue.  Not colours you might expect from an area that had a high Catholic population.  I once read they took their name from the Maryhill Fleet(o) so wonder if there is anything in that.  Or perhaps anything green/yeallow/white was already spoken for.

As others have mentioned, I could not tell you the religion of any United or Dundee fans unless they mentioned the school they went to.

Tweet tweet fur the Lochee Fleet

[Monkey Tennis]

8 hours ago, kingjoey said:

Of course he was.

I understand that Thistle fans agree with you here.

I can genuinely see that they were proud to have a player get lots of caps during an era when Scotland was strong.   

 

However, Rough honestly was quite a weak link.  He was seen as technically poor and he could be faulted for several of the goals in Argentina.  The fact is he was always vulnerable and lost plenty of soft goals.  There is a reason why bigger clubs didn't move for him.

If P&B existed then, it would be littered by the 7 year old me saying similar things.  He was widely regarded as not quite up to it at the time.

 

[kingjoey]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I understand that Thistle fans agree with you here.

I can genuinely see that they were proud to have a player get lots of caps during an era when Scotland was strong.   

 

However, Rough honestly was quite a weak link.  He was seen as technically poor and he could be faulted for several of the goals in Argentina.  The fact is he was always vulnerable and lost plenty of soft goals.  There is a reason why bigger clubs didn't move for him.

If P&B existed then, it would be littered by the 7 year old me saying similar things.  He was widely regarded as not quite up to it at the time.

 

Despite a number of people totally disagreeing with you, you're sticking to your guns. I admire your persistence. 

[Monkey Tennis]

13 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Despite a number of people totally disagreeing with you, you're sticking to your guns. I admire your persistence. 

A similar number have agreed with me.

Opinion seems divided, which in itself is a bit baffling.

[The Mantis]

England 2 Scotland 3 1967

 

Got the whole game on DVD years ago and decided to give it another watch yesterday. It would be interesting to hear if anybody else has it, or was at the game. I was nearly 12 and a bunch of us listened to it on a wee transistor radio out on the pavement…

 

It’s like night and day compared to modern fitba. As your typical oldie, I’m usually of the opinion that the modern game is technically far superior but completely devoid of any entertainment value. Nobody takes a risk any more.
The first thing that strikes you is how wasteful both teams are in possession (I thought the very same when I recently saw extended highlights of Inter v Celtic). Both lined up a very open 4-3-3 and went at it from the start. Denis Law misses an open goal on 20 mins as Wallace fizzes a cross over from the right.

 

The players are given an amazing amount of time to run with the ball even allowing that people always bang on about the big Wembley pitch. But when there’s a tackle, boy it’s fierce. Much is made of Jack Charlton hobbling early on and moving up front, but there must have been at least 6 players needing attention during the first half. Second half the players definitely tire and the pace becomes less frantic.

 

The German ref let a lot of heavy tackles go, although he was more niggly about other stuff such as dissent or obstruction. At 25 mins, Ray Wilson absolutely halves the overlapping Tommy Gemmell and bizarrely a corner is awarded to Scotland. In today’s game it would have probably finished about 7-a-side.

 

Not a weakness in the Scotland team that day and for me Bobby Charlton was the standout for England. Although it’s often reported as Baxter’s game, it’s interesting to see how Denis Law was getting stuck in and niggling away at them from the start. He really enjoyed putting one over on the English. Very pleasing to see the gradual disintegration of Alan Ball into a seething mess as Baxter and Law took the piss out of him as the game wore on. Otherwise it was played in a very sporting spirit and you can see players exchanging friendly chat e.g. Law and Stiles.

I don’t think there was one example of a defender shepherding it out for a goal kick in the whole game. They always tried to play the ball rather than let it go out. I can’t say I saw any gobbing either.

[kennie makevin]

15 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

A similar number have agrIt beed with me.

Opinion seems divided, which in itself is a bit baffling.

It certainly is....it's a long and depressing list but parhaps a glance at Scotland - USSR 82 is enough to remind us of how catastrophically awful Rough was as an international keeper.

 

 

[Nowhereman]

5 hours ago, The Mantis said:

England 2 Scotland 3 1967

 

Got the whole game on DVD years ago and decided to give it another watch yesterday. It would be interesting to hear if anybody else has it, or was at the game. I was nearly 12 and a bunch of us listened to it on a wee transistor radio out on the pavement…

 

It’s like night and day compared to modern fitba. As your typical oldie, I’m usually of the opinion that the modern game is technically far superior but completely devoid of any entertainment value. Nobody takes a risk any more.
The first thing that strikes you is how wasteful both teams are in possession (I thought the very same when I recently saw extended highlights of Inter v Celtic). Both lined up a very open 4-3-3 and went at it from the start. Denis Law misses an open goal on 20 mins as Wallace fizzes a cross over from the right.

 

The players are given an amazing amount of time to run with the ball even allowing that people always bang on about the big Wembley pitch. But when there’s a tackle, boy it’s fierce. Much is made of Jack Charlton hobbling early on and moving up front, but there must have been at least 6 players needing attention during the first half. Second half the players definitely tire and the pace becomes less frantic.

 

The German ref let a lot of heavy tackles go, although he was more niggly about other stuff such as dissent or obstruction. At 25 mins, Ray Wilson absolutely halves the overlapping Tommy Gemmell and bizarrely a corner is awarded to Scotland. In today’s game it would have probably finished about 7-a-side.

 

Not a weakness in the Scotland team that day and for me Bobby Charlton was the standout for England. Although it’s often reported as Baxter’s game, it’s interesting to see how Denis Law was getting stuck in and niggling away at them from the start. He really enjoyed putting one over on the English. Very pleasing to see the gradual disintegration of Alan Ball into a seething mess as Baxter and Law took the piss out of him as the game wore on. Otherwise it was played in a very sporting spirit and you can see players exchanging friendly chat e.g. Law and Stiles.

I don’t think there was one example of a defender shepherding it out for a goal kick in the whole game. They always tried to play the ball rather than let it go out. I can’t say I saw any gobbing either.

Re your final sentence. The amount of times footballers spit always baffles me. Do any other sportspeople do it?

[the philosopher]

Runners spit.

[tamthebam]

5 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

Re your final sentence. The amount of times footballers spit always baffles me. Do any other sportspeople do it?

Mark Spitz 

[Eednud]

16 hours ago, The Mantis said:

Got the whole game on DVD years ago and decided to give it another watch yesterday. It would be interesting to hear if anybody else has it, or was at the game. I was nearly 12 and a bunch of us listened to it on a wee transistor radio out on the pavement…

That just jogged the memory that only Scotland v England  games at Hampden were shown live in those days, not the games at Wembley plus there would have been some Scottish League games played. 
 

Seems it was only the second half that was broadcast on radio but that’s too far back for me to remember. I doubt that the match was “not deemed important enough to be shown live” and more like stuffy SFA and SFL blazers saying it clashed with league games or some similar sort of shite.

From The Scotsman sometime in 2017:

5. Standing room only

If you were not among the 99,063-strong crown at Wembley, you will not have seen Scotland’s greatest victory as it unfolded. Unlike today, the match was not deemed important enough to be shown live - and only the second half was covered by radio commentators. It was the only time during the 1960s the BBC did not cover the annual clash between Scotland and England but Scottish TV did screen three highlight programmes in the hours after the final whistle.

[PossilYM]

I was there at Wembley in 1967.

And 1965.

[Sergeant Wilson]

21 hours ago, kennie makevin said:

It certainly is....it's a long and depressing list but parhaps a glance at Scotland - USSR 82 is enough to remind us of how catastrophically awful Rough was as an international keeper.

 

 

He wasn't involved in the stand out moment in that game.

[HibeeJibee]

13 hours ago, Eednud said:

Seems it was only the second half that was broadcast on radio but that’s too far back for me to remember. I doubt that the match was “not deemed important enough to be shown live” and more like stuffy SFA and SFL blazers saying it clashed with league games or some similar sort of shite.

From The Scotsman sometime in 2017:

5. Standing room only

If you were not among the 99,063-strong crown at Wembley, you will not have seen Scotland’s greatest victory as it unfolded. Unlike today, the match was not deemed important enough to be shown live - and only the second half was covered by radio commentators. It was the only time during the 1960s the BBC did not cover the annual clash between Scotland and England but Scottish TV did screen three highlight programmes in the hours after the final whistle.

BBC1 was showing Grandstand with Wales v England in Five Nations rugby union (in between horse racing, boxing and motor racing). In those days BBC2 only broadcast at night. ITV were showing World of Sport (with showjumping, racing, scrambling then wrestling). Radio Scotland carried 2nd half - after 'Afternoon Theatre' then 'Home for the Day'.

There were 25min highlights on STV + Grampian at 10:05pm, and full game on Sunday at 2:50pm on STV only... Grampian viewers got 1947 romantic comedy 'The Bishops Wife' with Cary Grant. Border viewers never saw any highlights: Saturday was 'Armchair Theatre' and Sunday was 'Border Diary' plus 'Thunderbirds'. That might imply BBC didn't even hold TV rights.


There was a full card in the English lower divisions (though Scunthorpe and Tranmere played Friday night), partial card in top division, plus a smattering in Scotland:




As was traditional various Scottish clubs travelled down south to play friendlies either side of watching the international:

Friday 14th April     Arsenal 2-1 Dunfermline Athletic
Friday 14th April     Fulham 2-1 Kilmarnock

Monday 17th April     Chelmsford City 1-3 Partick Thistle
Monday 17th April     Crystal Palace 1-1 Dundee United
Monday 17th April     Southend United 1-1 Berwick Rangers

Tuesday 18th April     Notts County 1-4 Partick Thistle

Those matches at Highbury and Craven Cottage fulfilled the tradition of offering England and Scotland fans some football entertainment in London the night before the international, as was also usually done the night before the FA Cup Final in those days.

Edited November 2, 2023 by HibeeJibee

[Boghead ranter]

[Monkey Tennis]

10 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

He wasn't involved in the stand out moment in that game.

He didn't exactly make it difficult for Shengelia to finish, but I think it's fair to say that Messrs Miller and Hansen played a bigger part.  

 

Fun fact:  Shengelia died the day before the 30th anniversary of that match.

[Bogbrush1903]

12 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

He didn't exactly make it difficult for Shengelia to finish, but I think it's fair to say that Messrs Miller and Hansen played a bigger part.  

 

Fun fact:  Shengelia died the day before the 30th anniversary of that match.

I did not know that Shengelia had died!

Really it was all Hansen's making, he was lucky to get 20+ caps, absolutely rotten for Scotland.

[kingjoey]

12 hours ago, PossilYM said:

I was there at Wembley in 1967.

And 1965.

I was there in 1975.