rollstar Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 19 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said: I mentioned the Heysel which also initiated improvements with regards the Taylor Report and further afield as far as big crowds are no longer rountinely placed in dilapidated, ill-equipped stadiums. However, with regards the Heysel disaster, the Liverpool fans charging definitely initiated the deaths but don't underestimate the condition of the Heysel itself played in the the disaster...there was low flimsy wire fence segregating the Liverpool supporters from the Juventus family section, bits of masonry lying about, and the wall that eventually collapsed not fit for purpose. The Saturday before, the Main Stand at the Valley Parade had went up in flames because of the condition of the wooden stand and the build up of rubbish underneath. This isn't entirely accurate. The Bradford fire was on 11/5/85, the Heysel disaster was 18 days later on 29/5/85. The Taylor Report was triggered not by these but by the Hillsborough disaster 4 years later. I'm not sure if the Heysel disaster triggered any changes in British football grounds but if it did it would have been as part of the Popplewell Inquiry into the Bradford fire. Also, in the mid 1980s some smaller lower division football grounds were still in the process of being "designated" as part of the aftermath of the Ibrox disaster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghead ranter Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 14 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said: I think I'm right in saying that even the all conquering Celtic side of 1966/67 averaged about 31,000 that season. The previous season, they averaged just 24,000. Two years earlier, they averaged 18,000, with Hearts, Hibs and Dundee not too far behind. That's also a big factor in the separation that emerged between the OF and the rest. Their gates tended to be bigger than the other sides', but not massively so until the all seated, season ticket era. Changes in consumer behaviour have played a part. Celtic / Rangers averages around "9 in a row" were: 1962-63 24,643 / 30,685 1963-64 19,800 / 30,659 1964-65 18,284 / 29,089 1965-66 24,102 / 24,441 1966-67 31,082 / 28,573 1967-68 31,373 / 34,980 1968-69 34,740 / 33,747 1969-70 33,188 / 33,634 1970-71 29,647 / 29,471 1971-72 31,241 / 26,199 1972-73 26,606 / 27,469 1973-74 24,762 / 22,356 1974-75 22,275 / 32,855 1975-76 28,066 / 30,648 1976-77 28,063 / 21,692 Hearts/Hibs/Aberdeen were generally 10,000-15,000 so over half... whereas in recent times they've frequently been under quarter. EDIT: of course Celtic usually weren't in top 2 for crowds from early 1920s to early 1960s, and on a few occasions Hearts led ahead of Rangers. 1924-25 astonishes 100yrs on: Division One 17,500 Hearts 17,263 Rangers 13,842 Hibs 12,684 Aberdeen 12,132 Dundee 12,105 Partick 11,000 Celtic 9,895 St Johnstone 9,632 Queen's Park 9,211 Cowdenbeath 8,572 Third Lanark 8,552 Airdrieonians 8,211 Falkirk 7,289 Hamilton 7,263 St Mirren 6,974 Raith 6,632 Kilmarnock 5,816 Ayr Utd 4,897 Motherwell 4,794 Morton Division Two 5,289 Dundee Utd 3,474 Clydebank 2,921 Clyde 2,889 Dunfermline 2,842 Alloa 2,747 East Fife 2,554 King's Park 2,488 Arbroath 2,316 Bo'ness 2,305 East Stirlingshire 2,158 Albion Rovers 2,132 Dumbarton 1,974 St Bernards 1,947 Bathgate 1,895 Arthurlie 1,895 Stenhousemuir 1,868 Armadale 1,684 Forfar 1,632 Broxburn 1,184 Johnstone Edited February 24 by HibeeJibee 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamthebam Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 10 hours ago, Boghead ranter said: Last ever game or just a Section B rumble? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluearmyfaction Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 And this is the upshot of the Montrose bribery case, from the Scotsman, 24 February 1932... ...it sums up how bad Edinburgh City were, in that as soon as they win a match, a) everyone thinks there was some shenanigans going on, and, b), they were right... Also that £40-50 for throwing a match was nearly a year's playing wages. At least at Montrose. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dundee Hibernian Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 On 22/02/2024 at 05:37, Eednud said: Anyone know what the colour of both club’s change strips in this game were? Late to the party: Stirling probably had a thick red band on white for their jersey, a few years later they played with two thin red hoops on white as their home outfit. I'm guessing Arbroath reverted to their original black and white QP style jerseys for the change strip: they played in that style when they were formed in 1878. The above could be completely wrong, mind you! Here's the Albion in 57-58 with the style of playing kit used until the mid-60s. They revived this design for a couple of seasons 10 years ago. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) I assume the collar lining is not replicated on the back but it looks very Airdrie like from the front especially on some players.( this is something I hadn't noticed before but makes sense, with strips being made in traditional techniques and in small numbers it seems we end up with quite a lot of variance between shirts. Depth/ thickness of the V here changes quite dramatically for example. Edited February 26 by parsforlife 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranaldo Bairn Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Was looking along the lineup for Roy Erskine, grandfather of Andy Murray, but it turns out he was there 54-56. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dundee Hibernian Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 12 hours ago, parsforlife said: I assume the collar lining is not replicated on the back but it looks very Airdrie like from the front especially on some players.( this is something I hadn't noticed before but makes sense, with strips being made in traditional techniques and in small numbers it seems we end up with quite a lot of variance between shirts. Depth/ thickness of the V here changes quite dramatically for example. The big V shaped collar was very common on football jersey of the 'fifties and early 'sixties, even Airdrieonians themselves had a kit in that style: 12 hours ago, Ranaldo Bairn said: Was looking along the lineup for Roy Erskine, grandfather of Andy Murray, but it turns out he was there 54-56. Roy Erskine certainly contributed to the Murray look, here are a couple of images of him playing for Stirling Albion and Cowdenbeath: 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlbionMan Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 17 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said: Late to the party: Stirling probably had a thick red band on white for their jersey, a few years later they played with two thin red hoops on white as their home outfit. I'm guessing Arbroath reverted to their original black and white QP style jerseys for the change strip: they played in that style when they were formed in 1878. The above could be completely wrong, mind you! Here's the Albion in 57-58 with the style of playing kit used until the mid-60s. They revived this design for a couple of seasons 10 years ago. That one was worn 1957 to 1959, there were two hoops on the jersey. The players’s crossed arms hide the second hoop. The two hoops were kept till 1964/65 with minor detail changes, neck shape and detail, badge added, different socks 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 23/02/2024 at 13:23, Bogbrush1903 said: The Old Firm riot sparked change for the betterment (in my view) of Scottish football, in as far as fans were no longer coming into stadium with carry outs a bag of tins or a bottles of wine. Pity we've a government which is an outlier and treats football fans with utter contempt to the extent you can't even get a beer in hospitality at HT yet for Rugby you can sit and watch the game with as many beers as you wish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, AlbionMan said: That one was worn 1957 to 1959, there were two hoops on the jersey. The players’s crossed arms hide the second hoop. The two hoops were kept till 1964/65 with minor detail changes, neck shape and detail, badge added, different socks Stirling Albion jersey was all white in 1965/66, and for the rest of their spell in the top flight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghead ranter Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 'King' Kenny Ashwood in the background. 84/85 season. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piquet Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On 23/02/2024 at 13:23, Bogbrush1903 said: The Old Firm riot sparked change for the betterment (in my view) of Scottish football, in as far as fans were no longer coming into stadium with carry outs a bag of tins or a bottles of wine. I mentioned the Heysel which also initiated improvements with regards the Taylor Report and further afield as far as big crowds are no longer rountinely placed in dilapidated, ill-equipped stadiums. However, with regards the Heysel disaster, the Liverpool fans charging definitely initiated the deaths but don't underestimate the condition of the Heysel itself played in the the disaster...there was low flimsy wire fence segregating the Liverpool supporters from the Juventus family section, bits of masonry lying about, and the wall that eventually collapsed not fit for purpose. The Saturday before, the Main Stand at the Valley Parade had went up in flames because of the condition of the wooden stand and the build up of rubbish underneath. Consequently, there were troublemakers during this period amongst supporters but the Thatcher Government did nothing to force or encourage clubs to improve the environment where supporters went to watch their club. You sound a bit like the former Minister of Sport, Colin Moynihan, who also liked to suggest that all supporters were to blame for the actions of a minority. The Root Cause of Hyssel was the previous year, when Liverpool only sold about two thirds of their allocation and held onto the rest. This resulted in big empty spaces behind the left hand goal. UEFA didn't like this, and told them that the next time they got to a final, they would have to return unsold tickets or face a fine. As a result, tickets for the Liverpool end were on sale to all-comers in downtown Brussels on the day of the match. There therefore were large contingents of Juve fans in the so-called Neutral Section, separated from the LFC fans by a flimsy fence as described above. The rest was inevitable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennie makevin Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 6 minutes ago, Piquet said: The Root Cause of Hyssel was the previous year, when Liverpool only sold about two thirds of their allocation and held onto the rest. This resulted in big empty spaces behind the left hand goal. UEFA didn't like this, and told them that the next time they got to a final, they would have to return unsold tickets or face a fine. As a result, tickets for the Liverpool end were on sale to all-comers in downtown Brussels on the day of the match. There therefore were large contingents of Juve fans in the so-called Neutral Section, separated from the LFC fans by a flimsy fence as described above. The rest was inevitable. Not inevitable at all. It was Liverpool fans charging Juventus fans resulting in a fatal crush. At the very least manslaughter. The stadium didn't kill those Italians, UEFA and their ticketing allocation didn't kill those Italians, the Belgian police didn't kill those Italians. The actions of Liverpool supporters killed those Italians. Why is that responsibility so hard to accept ? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molotov Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 8 minutes ago, Piquet said: The Root Cause of Hyssel was the previous year, when Liverpool only sold about two thirds of their allocation and held onto the rest. This resulted in big empty spaces behind the left hand goal. UEFA didn't like this, and told them that the next time they got to a final, they would have to return unsold tickets or face a fine. As a result, tickets for the Liverpool end were on sale to all-comers in downtown Brussels on the day of the match. There therefore were large contingents of Juve fans in the so-called Neutral Section, separated from the LFC fans by a flimsy fence as described above. The rest was inevitable. There are many reasons why Heysel was a complete disaster. The main reason was a totally inadequate stadium. Arsenal had played a final there a few years before and described it as totally inadequate. Juventus and Liverpool both asked for the final to be moved to a different venue for safety reasons. There was deep hatred towards Italian fans from Liverpool fans due to the final the year before in Rome when many scousers were brutally assaulted. It was a powder keg atmosphere unfortunately. The segregation between the Liverpool area and the “neutral zone” was completely inadequate. So many reasons for the disaster. But I don’t believe for the reason you say unless you can provide proof as I believe there were no unsold tickets for 1984 final for the Liverpool end. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piquet Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 There's Souness's Penalty. You can see the open spaces behind him to his left. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eednud Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On the last day of February 1914 Arbroath lost 0-3 at home to Forfar Athletic in a Central League match. Forfar jerseys were blue and black hoops back then. Picture from https://www.arbroatharchive.co.uk/matchdetails.php?id=3195 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piquet Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 2 hours ago, kennie makevin said: Not inevitable at all. It was Liverpool fans charging Juventus fans resulting in a fatal crush. At the very least manslaughter. The stadium didn't kill those Italians, UEFA and their ticketing allocation didn't kill those Italians, the Belgian police didn't kill those Italians. The actions of Liverpool supporters killed those Italians. Why is that responsibility so hard to accept ? I agree fully with the bolded part above. However, the Design of the Stadium, it's age and poor suitability together with the "Event Management" contributed greatly to the Death Toll If the fans had been adequately segregated and if there had been adequate escape routes from the terrace, a lot fewer, if any would have been killed .. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molotov Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Piquet said: There's Souness's Penalty. You can see the open spaces behind him to his left. But that’s not proof that was a designated Liverpool section. If it was a Liverpool section then the crowd would have surely used the free space? I don’t know for sure. Roma were in that final after bribing a referee to defeat Dundee United in the semifinal. It’s still incredible to think that United made it that far with such limited resources. Over 61,000 at that final were Roma fans. In 1977 when Liverpool won their first European Cup 25,000 scousers were in attendance. I think only 8,000 reds were at the 1984 final. It’s entirely feasible that section was left open as some form of segregation barrier between supporters. Jings - that’s 40 years ago now. It’s possible that United may have gone on to win the trophy that season but for that referee in the semifinal. What a tale that would have been for their supporters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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