Scott McTominay

[VincentGuerin]

17 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

I would argue in terms of pure tournament outcomes that Southgate is the most successful England manager in decades. A Euros final and World Cup SF and QF puts him well ahead of anyone other than Ramsey.

If you measure it that way, you could say a Killie coach who gets to a cup final and loses it to Hearts by beating Auchinleck, EK Thistle, Brechin City, and Civil Service Strollers was Killie's best cup coach in a decade. Wouldn't mean much.

The only one of his predecessors (going back as far back as failure to qualify for USA 94) to lose a tournament game you're surprised they lost is Hodgson at Euro 2016. Southgate's just carried that on, but with the coin-toss games coming later in tourmanents due to kind draws or playing at home.

Not winning Euro 2020 was absolutely criminal. Especially the manner in which they failed. He left a massive opportunity on the table.

Edited September 12, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[Jacky1990]

14 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

I would argue in terms of pure tournament outcomes that Southgate is the most successful England manager in decades. A Euros final and World Cup SF and QF puts him well ahead of anyone other than Ramsey.

Southgate's achievements are completely overblown IMO.

They should have at least made the final of the 2018 WC given their ridiculously easy draw but didnt. 

They essentially had a home Euro 2020, again had an easyish draw but got beat by a pretty poor Italy team in the final.

2022 World Cup they did okay, but France were there for the taking and the fluffed it again.

IMO he's achieved nothing and is lucky to still be in the job.

[accies1874]

1 hour ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Agreed. SAF is one of the best examples of a manager who used some unfashionable players and was very loyal, until he wasn’t anymore. 

It’s a great strength, until it isn’t. In the same way that some players hold on too long, too many managers do it as well. Southgate hasn’t transitioned Henderson/Phillips and his centre halves, either for replacement or for cover. 

Brown did it, and so did Strachan. To some extent, international managers are a hostage to fortune, but some are better than others.

SC has done a decent job of moving players on. He might end up too loyal, but it’s unlikely to be a problem for a few years. I also see him as an excellent man-manager who can cope well with those aspects. 

Edit: I could be clearer. SAF was excellent at moving players on at the right time. Strachan and Brown left the next manager in the lurch.

I think there was a fair argument that Strachan shouldn't have been sacked when he was because results and performances had improved greatly, but it was good to have that clean break with this group of players (who were coming through then and hitting their peak now) and a new manager who'd trust them. If we just binned McLeish after he won the Nations League group, his tenure could've almost been considered a success in terms of establishing the new generation while still being successful in competitive matches. 

I can barely think of a player who Clarke's DROPPED yet the squad's so much different to his first one, so he's clearly been good at phasing players out naturally. Also, unless Kelly or McCrorie get a shock debut, this will be the first international break since October 2021 where there hasn't been a debut. 

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, Jacky1990 said:

Southgate's achievements are completely overblown IMO.

They should have at least made the final of the 2018 WC given their ridiculously easy draw but didnt. 

They essentially had a home Euro 2020, again had an easyish draw but got beat by a pretty poor Italy team in the final.

2022 World Cup they did okay, but France were there for the taking and the fluffed it again.

IMO he's achieved nothing and is lucky to still be in the job.

Very lucky to survive the Euro 2020 final. He basically Croatia'd it all over again.

I think he's lucky that he's associated with the 'likeable' myth of this England team. The reaction of the racists in England to the black players missing penalties was a big deal and I think Southgate avoided overly harsh criticism in the media as he had a lot of credit in the bank from your more progressive types for how he deals with social issues.

I, personally, think he's a Tory c**t who has played the media like a fiddle and his Island Race comments and treatment of the Henderson issue show this to be the case.

But I think it's a large part of why he kept his job.

[The Algebraist]

I like him a lot as a bloke and a leader, but not really as a coach.

I think if England had had a proper details focused, perfectionist dickhead like Tuchel in charge they may well have won one of the last three tournaments. Not sure if that is a good thing or not but hey ho.

Edit: Wtf am I saying. England not winning any of the last three tournaments is clearly is a good thing.

Edited September 12, 2023 by The Algebraist

[Brother Blades]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

 

I would argue in terms of pure tournament outcomes that Southgate is the most successful England manager in decades. A Euros final and World Cup SF and QF puts him well ahead of anyone other than Ramsey.

I’d agree with the above, but I’d say he’s also arguably got a greater talent pool to select from, previous managers had to select teams from jobbers like Beckham, Scholes, Shearer, Gascoigne, Linekar etc. 

[Alan Twelve]

4 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

I’d agree with the above, but I’d say he’s also arguably got a greater talent pool to select from, previous managers had to select teams from jobbers like Beckham, Scholes, Shearer, Gascoigne, Linekar etc. 

This is without doubt the finest demonstration of Poe's Law I've ever seen. Genuinely don't know if you're being serious. Good work!

[Alan Twelve]

1 hour ago, The Algebraist said:

I think if England had had a proper details focused, perfectionist dickhead like Tuchel in charge they may well have won one of the last three tournaments. Not sure if that is a good thing or not but hey ho.

In every tournament I can remember, England have seemingly just been a change of manager away from winning it.

[The Algebraist]

23 minutes ago, Alan Twelve said:

In every tournament I can remember, England have seemingly just been a change of manager away from winning it.

Yeah fair enough, but I think the big difference recently has been the incredibly kind draws and that some of their major rivals have been weaker than they were. 

 

[Pocketman]

2 hours ago, accies1874 said:

I think there was a fair argument that Strachan shouldn't have been sacked when he was because results and performances had improved greatly, but it was good to have that clean break with this group of players (who were coming through then and hitting their peak now) and a new manager who'd trust them. If we just binned McLeish after he won the Nations League group, his tenure could've almost been considered a success in terms of establishing the new generation while still being successful in competitive matches. 

I can barely think of a player who Clarke's DROPPED yet the squad's so much different to his first one, so he's clearly been good at phasing players out naturally. Also, unless Kelly or McCrorie get a shock debut, this will be the first international break since October 2021 where there hasn't been a debut. 

Strachan refused to pick/start in-form Scot Prem players including the Celtic contingent until he literally had no choice - his preference was English Championship players. I recall his infamous remark that Griffiths may be okay up front but because of his size he couldn't defend corners, The up-turn in our fortunes under Strachan came pretty much when all the Celtic Scottish players were selected and started games. Therefore Strachan's belligerence up till that point (and his bizarre obsession with height and stature) meant that in many supporter (and perhaps the SFA's) eyes, there was no goodwill at that point to be applied. Any goodwill was well and truly spent after another disappointing campaign culminating in a horsing of Gibraltar, a wee sing-song by some happy-clappies and Strachan inexcusably being extended when he should have been shown the door. 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

57 minutes ago, The Algebraist said:

Yeah fair enough, but I think the big difference recently has been the incredibly kind draws and that some of their major rivals have been weaker than they were. 

 

That's a fair point - Germany/Italy/Belgium/Netherlands/Spain are all well below their historic best.  Sure, countries all have to go through transitional periods at some point, but it seems unusual for so many to be timed together.  It seems that only France, England, and Portugal of the historic strong European sides have a decent pool at the moment.

You've got to take your chances when you have it.  The current German side looks like it could be bulldozed at yet another competition.  The Italians qualifying would be an improvement, but they don't look all that great either.

[VincentGuerin]

1 hour ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

That's a fair point - Germany/Italy/Belgium/Netherlands/Spain are all well below their historic best.  Sure, countries all have to go through transitional periods at some point, but it seems unusual for so many to be timed together.  It seems that only France, England, and Portugal of the historic strong European sides have a decent pool at the moment.

You've got to take your chances when you have it.  The current German side looks like it could be bulldozed at yet another competition.  The Italians qualifying would be an improvement, but they don't look all that great either.

The situation now is similar to that around the Euro 96 - France 98 tournament processes. Some teams are decent, nobody is really outstanding, a lot of teams are in transition, and you get the feeling a lot of countries are waiting for things to click back into place. The winners of the next Euros and World Cup are unlikely to be sides looked back on as historically wonderful. The only weird thing is that this situation seems to have been with us for a while now.

[Donathan]

Starts today for Man Utd with Bruno Fernandes shifted out to the wing due to the ongoing situations with both Antony and Sancho. I reckon he will do well playing ahead further forward in that team. 

[Jambomo]

2 minutes ago, Donathan said:

Starts today for Man Utd with Bruno Fernandes shifted out to the wing due to the ongoing situations with both Antony and Sancho. I reckon he will do well playing ahead further forward in that team. 

I hope he does, and I hope he has a good game. I hate that he gets so much shit from Man U fans.

[Captain_Sensible]

1 hour ago, Donathan said:

Starts today for Man Utd with Bruno Fernandes shifted out to the wing due to the ongoing situations with both Antony and Sancho. I reckon he will do well playing ahead further forward in that team. 

McTominay is a midfield 3 with Bruno playing behind Rashford & Hojlund

The Antony situation maybe providing an opportunity for the Sauce for a run of games? 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Captain_Sensible

[Barry Ferguson's Hat]

It's going to take something very special to get Goldbridge back on side.

[PSJ.84]

Doesn’t sound like it was a great afternoon for him. 15 completed passes in 85 minutes. 

[Miguel Sanchez]

25 minutes ago, PSJ.84 said:

Doesn’t sound like it was a great afternoon for him. 15 completed passes in 85 minutes. 

Fifth highest United player on the BBC player ratings. Gilmour bottom for Brighton. Normal service resumed.

[MarkoRaj]

11 hours ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

Fifth highest United player on the BBC player ratings. Gilmour bottom for Brighton. Normal service resumed.

Gilmour should have had a brilliant assist but fati missed a sitter

Watched the full game and Mctominay was completely anonymous. I actually felt embarrassed for him, he looked lost

Partly down to the ridiculous narrow diamond formation that left him totally exposed and chasing shadows for the second time in a week

[central staggie]

15 hours ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

Fifth highest United player on the BBC player ratings. Gilmour bottom for Brighton. Normal service resumed.

Could be wrong, bit didn't Gilmour only get about 10 minutes?