Kieran Tierney

[2426255]

9 minutes ago, Chewing Taffies said:

Arteta seemingly in the market for a new LB. Makes the whole Tierney situation even more bizarre. He was 5th choice LB at Arsenal and now they would rather sign a new LB while he is out on loan. Arteta just doesn't rate him at all despite giving him the hardest trainer award every season he was there.

It just seems bizarre because as fans on the outside we don't know the full facts. If we had the full picture I'm sure it would make sense.   

[Jambomo]

10 hours ago, 2426255 said:

It just seems bizarre because as fans on the outside we don't know the full facts. If we had the full picture I'm sure it would make sense.   

It makes sense on one level, he doesn’t play the inverted role and the players who played ahead of him did, to varying degrees of success. It’s Arteta’s style and he doesn’t fit it so away he goes.

What doesn’t make that much sense (to me at least) is that Arteta doesn’t seem to be at all capable of moving away from inverted LB even when he hasn’t got the players to play it, even to the point he doesn’t try inverting the RB, which White could probably do. Tomiyasu is always injured and Zinchenko is a liability these days, so changing to inverting White and bringing back Tierney would be sensible, because they don’t have much money due to FFP, and he is as good as they come as a classic LB. Arteta is too rigid to try.

He also seems massively wasteful with players, his way of just freezing them out and making it clear they aren’t wanted at the club anymore, like he is doing now with Ramsdale and Smith-Rowe, and did to Tierney, totally ruins their value and is just a weird way to behave. 

Anyway, this is the Tierney thread and it looks like he’s pretty confident that he is not going back to Arsenal.

 

Edited January 5 by Jambomo

[DukDukGoose]

He's clearly their best traditional left back but just doesn't fit the system.

He's too unreliable to change a system to suit him. They'd need another proper left back as back up to make it worth their while.

[2426255]

11 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

It makes sense on one level, he doesn’t play the inverted role and the players who played ahead of him did, to varying degrees of success. It’s Arteta’s style and he doesn’t fit it so away he goes.

Tierney would perform admirably as an inverted fullback IMO. 

[Londonwell]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Tierney would perform admirably as an inverted fullback IMO. 

He did look uncomfortable in that role the few times I watched him attempt it for Arsenal tbh. In particular there was a game away to West Ham he just didn’t seem a natural fit for what Arteta wanted and actually, given his biggest strengths, he probably thought (correctly imo) that he was wasted being played there. 
 

Great player but just wasn’t what Arteta was looking for seemingly. 

[2426255]

6 hours ago, Londonwell said:

He did look uncomfortable in that role the few times I watched him attempt it for Arsenal tbh. In particular there was a game away to West Ham he just didn’t seem a natural fit for what Arteta wanted and actually, given his biggest strengths, he probably thought (correctly imo) that he was wasted being played there. 

Great player but just wasn’t what Arteta was looking for seemingly. 

Fair enough, you've seen that and I haven't unfortunately. I trust your judgement though and accept at this moment he isn't suited for Arsenal and Arteta at this time.

8 hours ago, Jambomo said:

What doesn’t make that much sense (to me at least) is that Arteta doesn’t seem to be at all capable of moving away from inverted LB even when he hasn’t got the players to play it, even to the point he doesn’t try inverting the RB, which White could probably do.

Real Sociedad invert their right full back (Traore), but KT hasn't yet performed that role in the 3 games I've seen him play in Spain. That adds to the argument that he isn't suited to performing that role.

Still between all of us it's a small sample of games. It could be possible he will learn the inverting fullback role in Spain and begin to apply it in games over the course of the rest of the season. 

[Londonwell]

3 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Still between all of us it's a small sample of games. It could be possible he will learn the inverting fullback role in Spain and begin to apply it in games over the course of the rest of the season. 

I think that’s a fair point, we’re talking a handful of games here. He’s such a high level of player that there’s no reason to doubt he wouldn’t adapt to that eventually, although clearly wasn’t going to get the chance to do it at Arsenal.
 

The thing about him playing that role atm is that it may blunt his rampaging runs and quality delivery into the box. However, as he gets older, and particularly with the injuries he’s had, he may naturally drift towards that kind of player. 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

No one is immune to criticism, and managers like Arteta are wedded to their philosophies like artists, professors, and those at the top of their game. The worst of them continuously double down even when it becomes plainly obvious to everyone else that their setup has weaknesses being exploited. Some perceive identifying weakness or admitting to weakness is a weakness in itself.

The very very best adapt and change with the game. They manage complex, varying, and difficult squads and get the very best out of their players. They freeze out players only when they have to - irrespective of their individual value (think SAF with the few he did it too).

I’m not at all convinced by Arteta. His freezing out of players is odd, and quite counter to how Guardiola works. The way he whines about referees also grates with me. 

Either way, I’m quite happy at the prospect of Tierney staying out of Arsenal. No doubt decisions to be made in the summer, but completing the season in Spain is surely the optimum outcome.

Edited January 7 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[2426255]

4 hours ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

The very very best adapt and change with the game. They manage complex, varying, and difficult squads and get the very best out of their players. They freeze out players only when they have to - irrespective of their individual value (think SAF with the few he did it too).

I'm not an Arteta fanboy, but isn't that what he's been doing at Arsenal? His public personality probably rubs people up the wrong way and Scotland fans doubtless take it as an insult when he "freezes out" one of our most talented players. In my view Arteta isn't definitely wedded to inverted fullbacks, just plain stubborn or necessarily idealistic.

It's clear that inverting fullbacks is currently one part of a dominant strategy for the teams with the best players in their league to win football matches, not just at Arsenal - but many teams across Europe do this because it's effective in practice. Ball playing goalkeepers being another good example.

I don't know what a cost-benefit analysis of playing Zinchenko as an inverted fullback would reveal, but I can't imagine you'll find that answer on a TA forum as the popular focus is simply that Arteta and Zinchenko are public enemy #1 and #2 respectively so you'll only see the cost here. 

Perhaps KT could also look to make some adaptations to his game, which is something he might be doing for all we know at Real Sociedad.

[craigkillie]

14 hours ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

I’m not at all convinced by Arteta. His freezing out of players is odd, and quite counter to how Guardiola works. The way he whines about referees also grates with me.

It's not that different to Guardiola. Cancelo and Gabriel Jesus are two have found themselves in a similar position.

[Binos]

9 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I'm not an Arteta fanboy, but isn't that what he's been doing at Arsenal? His public personality probably rubs people up the wrong way and Scotland fans doubtless take it as an insult when he "freezes out" one of our most talented players. In my view Arteta isn't definitely wedded to inverted fullbacks, just plain stubborn or necessarily idealistic.

It's clear that inverting fullbacks is currently one part of a dominant strategy for the teams with the best players in their league to win football matches, not just at Arsenal - but many teams across Europe do this because it's effective in practice. Ball playing goalkeepers being another good example.

I don't know what a cost-benefit analysis of playing Zinchenko as an inverted fullback would reveal, but I can't imagine you'll find that answer on a TA forum as the popular focus is simply that Arteta and Zinchenko are public enemy #1 and #2 respectively so you'll only see the cost here. 

Perhaps KT could also look to make some adaptations to his game, which is something he might be doing for all we know at Real Sociedad.

I saw an interview and was talking about full back playing centre halfs for this season,  your ben white type player, know he is right side

But seems is a 'tactical' decision regards Tierney 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

11 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I'm not an Arteta fanboy, but isn't that what he's been doing at Arsenal? His public personality probably rubs people up the wrong way and Scotland fans doubtless take it as an insult when he "freezes out" one of our most talented players. In my view Arteta isn't definitely wedded to inverted fullbacks, just plain stubborn or necessarily idealistic.

It's clear that inverting fullbacks is currently one part of a dominant strategy for the teams with the best players in their league to win football matches, not just at Arsenal - but many teams across Europe do this because it's effective in practice. Ball playing goalkeepers being another good example.

I don't know what a cost-benefit analysis of playing Zinchenko as an inverted fullback would reveal, but I can't imagine you'll find that answer on a TA forum as the popular focus is simply that Arteta and Zinchenko are public enemy #1 and #2 respectively so you'll only see the cost here. 

Perhaps KT could also look to make some adaptations to his game, which is something he might be doing for all we know at Real Sociedad.

That’s my take - he’s stubborn and idealistic.  Pragmatism has a role to play, and I’d argue the very very best managers are able to adapt on the fly to deal with imperfect situations.

I’d counter the other Guardiola point - he improves and rebuilds players into what he wants far more than he rejects them.

Either way, the whole discussion is academic but my take on Arteta is that he’s overly inflexible, and partial to using scapegoats to hide both his own inadequacies, but also the inevitable losses of form and variation that happens to everyone.

Edited January 7 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[ahemps]

2 hours ago, craigkillie said:

It's not that different to Guardiola. Cancelo and Gabriel Jesus are two have found themselves in a similar position.

Has Guardiola not got quite a bit of history with this? Ibrahimovic slated him for it when he froze out him and Henry.

[Mr.Bojangles]

8 hours ago, SH Panda said:

Of course he won't be recalled, if he was it would have happened at the beginning of the window.

I'm not surprised he's doing well in La Liga, will be a key player for us in the summer.

Some laugh he's supposedly Arsenal's 5th choice left back despite playing far more matches there last season than everyone who isn't called Zinchenko combined. Some fantasy world to live in.

KT thought he deserved better than second choice (which is what he clearly was) and went out and got it.

He started very few games, though. Even when Arteta couldn't find a right back to squeeze in ahead of him if Zinchenko wasn't available, he'd put a midfielder in instead of him. He'd be on the bench and come on for the last fifteen minutes to see a result out. It's something he's capable of, but a massive waste of his best features as the team would only be willing to do a fast counterattack where he'd be expected to be part of the rest defence. 

[2426255]

33 minutes ago, Mr.Bojangles said:

He started very few games, though. Even when Arteta couldn't find a right back to squeeze in ahead of him if Zinchenko wasn't available, he'd put a midfielder in instead of him. He'd be on the bench and come on for the last fifteen minutes to see a result out. It's something he's capable of, but a massive waste of his best features as the team would only be willing to do a fast counterattack where he'd be expected to be part of the rest defence. 

Careful mate or Satoshi/SH Panda will start the whole self hating Scot thing again...

Edited January 12 by 2426255

[Squirrelhumper]

If Tierney doesn't get on with Arteta then he is a great judge of character as Arteta is even more insufferable then Pep is. 

[Alan Twelve]

When Zinchenko missed four games in Oct 22 Tomiyasu started all four in his place with Tierney on the bench. So yes, Tierney was second choice LB, but not to Zinchenko - he was second choice to whoever was available whether that was their regular position or not.

[velo army]

It was my Christmas wish that this would be the year when PnB finally establishes where KT is in the Arsenal pecking order. I'm watching this debate with baited breath.

[eez-eh]

7 hours ago, velo army said:

It was my Christmas wish that this would be the year when PnB finally establishes where KT is in the Arsenal pecking order. I'm watching this debate with bated breath.

Count yourself lucky that Supras Satoshi is back to set the record straight.

[Barry Ferguson's Hat]

KT isn't professional enough to be 2nd choice for Arsenal.