JamesM82 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Shodwall cat said: You could have ronaldo in your squad but if your a shit manager it won't make a blind bit of difference. Hibs fans are blinded by the fact that he won them the cup after so many years and ignore the fact he struggled to compete with peter houston over two seasons. A cup defeat, 3rd in the league and beaten over two legs in the playoffs by a team they should never be struggling against. Lennon won the league at a canter the next season with a lot of the same players. With almost exactly the same points total (71) as Stubbs won in each of the previous two seasons (70 in both). The reason Hibs did or did not win the league in those years was the presence (or otherwise) of Hearts and Rangers. Lennon really didn't change that much, other than sign a decent goalkeeper and shitfest through a few draws against Morton to get over the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shodwall cat Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, JamesM82 said: With almost exactly the same points total (71) as Stubbs won in each of the previous two seasons (70 in both). The reason Hibs did or did not win the league in those years was the presence (or otherwise) of Hearts and Rangers. Lennon really didn't change that much, other than sign a decent goalkeeper and shitfest through a few draws against Morton to get over the line. And the fact that he managed to finish above every side he had a bigger budget than unlike Stubbs. I'm not blowing Falkirks trumpet here I'm just pointing out that Stubbs as was found out at Rotherham is a pretty pish manager. Saints need someone who is going to overachieve on their budget and Stubbs is a serial under achiever when it comes to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 It looks like Stubbs, Caldwell, Kearney and McIntyre is the final four. I'd be tempted to take a punt on Kearney but if it's not him I'd far rather have Stubbs than the other two. I'm guessing the Saints fans who are defending his record are doing so for similar reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesM82 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Shodwall cat said: And the fact that he managed to finish above every side he had a bigger budget than unlike Stubbs. I'm not blowing Falkirks trumpet here I'm just pointing out that Stubbs as was found out at Rotherham is a pretty pish manager. Saints need someone who is going to overachieve on their budget and Stubbs is a serial under achiever when it comes to that. You're exaggerating. He's had two full seasons as a manager. He finished second in the first year, when he had the third highest budget. He finished third in the second season, when he had the second highest budget. Rotherham was a stupid job for him to take. They had only just avoided relegation the previous year because Warnock (who is an excellent manager at that level) had pulled off a miraculous escape, but he then fucked off at the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djchapsticks Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Stu said: It looks like Stubbs, Caldwell, Kearney and McIntyre is the final four. I'd be tempted to take a punt on Kearney but if it's not him I'd far rather have Stubbs than the other two. I'm guessing the Saints fans who are defending his record are doing so for similar reasons. Exactly the reason I'm defending his record. I'm sure the Saints fans who are defending McIntyre are doing so for similar reasons that he's done OK through his career. I don't think for a moment that means any of us are jumping through hoops at the prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shodwall cat Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 8 minutes ago, JamesM82 said: You're exaggerating. He's had two full seasons as a manager. He finished second in the first year, when he had the third highest budget. He finished third in the second season, when he had the second highest budget. Rotherham was a stupid job for him to take. They had only just avoided relegation the previous year because Warnock (who is an excellent manager at that level) had pulled off a miraculous escape, but he then fucked off at the end of the season. If Stubbs is that good a manager how come he couldnt replicate Warnock? Rotherham were relegated by a country mile . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paisleysaints Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I imagine st mirren board room will be pulling some Rod Stewart actions on picking the manger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Grimes Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Stubbs went into a Hibs who were shamboloc from top to bottom and made them respectable, reaching two major cup finals, dishing out multiple Sevco skuddings and winning the Scottish Cup Rotherham was a bizarre job choice, lots of good managers get hung out to dry in England, I wouldn’t use that as a yard stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesM82 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 15 minutes ago, Frank Grimes said: Stubbs went into a Hibs who were shamboloc from top to bottom and made them respectable, reaching two major cup finals, dishing out multiple Sevco skuddings and winning the Scottish Cup Rotherham was a bizarre job choice, lots of good managers get hung out to dry in England, I wouldn’t use that as a yard stick This is all true. Regarding Hibs, the question I would have is how much of the turnaround was due to Stubbs, and how much was due to Dempster / Craig (i.e. the overall structure) being changed for the better. Before those changes, Hibs gave their managers pretty much full reign but operated on very tight budgets. Most of them weren't up to it. Stubbs and Lennon have only been "head coaches" rather than manager, and Dempster took more risk with the budgets (Hibs would have made large losses but for the cup runs). I suspect he would have more responsibilities at St Mirren than he did at Hibs. Rotherham, as you say, can be disregarded to some extent due to the nuttiness of English league football, particularly at that level. Lower level teams in England give their managers some time (e.g. Derek Adams turning around Plymouth this year), but their Championship is extremely cut-throat. Perfectly good managers in Scotland have had a clunker due to that (e.g. McInnes). He was wrong to take the job and folk said that at the time. I think he took it because he was keen to move back down nearer Liverpool, but it was daft from a job security / progression point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 26 minutes ago, Frank Grimes said: Stubbs went into a Hibs who were shamboloc from top to bottom and made them respectable, reaching two major cup finals, dishing out multiple Sevco skuddings and winning the Scottish Cup Rotherham was a bizarre job choice, lots of good managers get hung out to dry in England, I wouldn’t use that as a yard stick Coyle came into us after we'd almost got relegated, and completely turned us around, taking us far in Cups yet never getting relegated. Sometimes managers arrive at a club that's dipped as far as it can, and are inevitably going to experience an upturn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Judge Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 49 minutes ago, Shodwall cat said: If Stubbs is that good a manager how come he couldnt replicate Warnock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shodwall cat Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 56 minutes ago, Frank Grimes said: Stubbs went into a Hibs who were shamboloc from top to bottom and made them respectable, reaching two major cup finals, dishing out multiple Sevco skuddings and winning the Scottish Cup Rotherham was a bizarre job choice, lots of good managers get hung out to dry in England, I wouldn’t use that as a yard stick Respectable? They were still getting the pish ripped out them every time they bottled it against us when he was in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesM82 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 14 minutes ago, Shodwall cat said: Respectable? They were still getting the pish ripped out them every time they bottled it against us when he was in charge. 1 hour ago, Shodwall cat said: And the fact that he managed to finish above every side he had a bigger budget than unlike Stubbs. I'm not blowing Falkirks trumpet here I'm just pointing out that Stubbs as was found out at Rotherham is a pretty pish manager. Saints need someone who is going to overachieve on their budget and Stubbs is a serial under achiever when it comes to that. Sure you are son. It's fair enough really, because "finishing above Hibs" two years ago was the last halfway decent thing done by Falkirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, JamesM82 said: Sure you are son. It's fair enough really, because "finishing above Hibs" two years ago is about the last halfway decent thing done by Falkirk. And it was an utter embarrassment for the Hibs manager at that time, who was that again? I for one, would be utterly delighted if St Mirren appointed Stubbs. McIntyre is just as uninspiring, but a safer pair of hands than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesM82 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 10 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said: And it was an utter embarrassment for the Hibs manager at that time, who was that again? I for one, would be utterly delighted if St Mirren appointed Stubbs. McIntyre is just as uninspiring, but a safer pair of hands than him. Not sure why a Dundee fan is knocking managers who have won a major trophy in living memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, JamesM82 said: Not sure why a Dundee fan is knocking managers who have won a major trophy in living memory. It's sad that that is your only justification for him being anything other than inept. Jim McIntyre has also won a major trophy, which I'm sure you'll remember just as fondly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesM82 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Ludo*1 said: It's sad that that is your only justification for him being anything other than inept. Jim McIntyre has also won a major trophy, which I'm sure you'll remember just as fondly? That's why I said "managers" (plural), not "a manager". I'm sure you will be equally dismissive of the next Dundee manager that wins a major trophy. Whenever that may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shodwall cat Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 If he'd come b 18 minutes ago, JamesM82 said: Sure you are son. It's fair enough really, because "finishing above Hibs" two years ago was the last halfway decent thing done by Falkirk. If he'd come below Raith feckin Rovers I'd still be pointing out the same thing. Its the fact that he failed miserable to finish higher than a team even though he had 3 times the budget thats the point here and not the fact that it happened to be Falkirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 It’s over simplistic to think of managers as being good or bad. Sure, some are usually bad and some are usually good but success or not is down to the fit between the manager and the job. Getting Hibs from disarray to promoted is a very different job to improving a good div 1 side to stay in the SPL. trying to keep ross co up is more similar but still different. Then there is the range of duties and organisational structure to consider. Does the manager manage the budget for example? And the culture and personalities already in place can also have an impact. In summary, I don’t care who you appoint, you weegie p***ks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 The deal is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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