welshbairn Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: Your loyalty is admirable but every time you make reference to seats, voting outcomes, geographic trends you are referencing a vote which took place almost 3-1/2 years ago, with most current evidence suggesting a significant swing towards Remain. Labour has chosen to (once again) vacillate and ignore that, and history tells us that Mibbes Aye/Mibbes Naw parties don't appeal to voters. No matter all the melon-sized grins of McLuskey and his fellow travellers at today's bunfight, the real smiles tonight will be in every Lib Dem branch south of Manchester. And you can right off Scotland pronto. Scotland doesn't matter to Labour anymore, they know they've lost it. It's about whether the Tories get to make the election all about Brexit instead of austerity and their shocking economic and social policies of the last decade, and Labour policies that can take us forward. The Tory choice is between a hard and no deal brexit, the lib dems about ignoring democracy altogether. Labour is offering a genuine choice between the best possible brexit deal they can negotiate and remain. If they said they were officially going for remain before they'd even started negotiations, firstly the EU would have no motivation to give them that, and secondly no leave voter would believe they were serious about being given a real choice. Going to the doorstep and saying to maybe half the population that yes, they want to get a better deal and give a vote on it, but before they've even negotiated it they're going to campaign against it, is just surreal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Scotland doesn't matter to Labour anymore, they know they've lost it. It's about whether the Tories get to make the election all about Brexit instead of austerity and their shocking economic and social policies of the last decade, and Labour policies that can take us forward. The Tory choice is between a hard and no deal brexit, the lib dems about ignoring democracy altogether. Labour is offering a genuine choice between the best possible brexit deal they can negotiate and remain. If they said they were officially going for remain before they'd even started negotiations, firstly the EU would have no motivation to give them that, and secondly no leave voter would believe they were serious about being given a real choice. Going to the doorstep and saying to maybe half the population that yes, they want to get a better deal and give a vote on it, but before they've even negotiated it they're going to campaign against it, is just surreal.Another person who seems to be ignoring the Remain groundswell. And what evidence is there that there is ANY chance of Corbyn prosecuting a better deal when the man himself is a gut leaver ? Let's just agree here that after today there is NO prospect of a Labour Government any time soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: And what evidence is there that there is ANY chance of Corbyn prosecuting a better deal when the man himself is a gut leaver ? That's exactly why he could convincingly get a better deal to offer to Leavers. 10 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: Let's just agree here that after today there is NO prospect of a Labour Government any time soon. There would have been no prospect if Labour were offering Lib Dem lite. Labour's only route to power is taking on the Tories directly on their record, offering their alternative future, and a fair choice to put back to the people in a referendum on brexit. Edited September 23, 2019 by welshbairn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 There would have been no prospect if Labour were offering Lib Dem lite. Labour's only route to power is taking on the Tories directly on their record, offering their alternative future, and a fair choice to put back to the people in a referendum on brexit.Good luck with that, it's looking like an extreme form of wishful thinking to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I presume Dicky Leonard has handed in his notice as a result of branch office smackdown by the Corbynites 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 16 minutes ago, welshbairn said: That's exactly why he could convincingly get a better deal to offer to Leavers. There would have been no prospect if Labour were offering Lib Dem lite. Labour's only route to power is taking on the Tories directly on their record, offering their alternative future, and a fair choice to put back to the people in a referendum on brexit. 6 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: 16 minutes ago, welshbairn said: There would have been no prospect if Labour were offering Lib Dem lite. Labour's only route to power is taking on the Tories directly on their record, offering their alternative future, and a fair choice to put back to the people in a referendum on brexit. Good luck with that, it's looking like an extreme form of wishful thinking to me. No worries. We'll soon be able to put it all behind us when Indyref2 is granted and the Scottish Revolution gets underway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 minute ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: 11 minutes ago, welshbairn said: There would have been no prospect if Labour were offering Lib Dem lite. Labour's only route to power is taking on the Tories directly on their record, offering their alternative future, and a fair choice to put back to the people in a referendum on brexit. Good luck with that, it's looking like an extreme form of wishful thinking to me. I'm a recent convert to Corbynistaism, and a remainer from head to toe, my only limit is destroying faith in democracy on its alter. People have to be offered a genuine choice to justify a second referendum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: 19 minutes ago, welshbairn said: There would have been no prospect if Labour were offering Lib Dem lite. Labour's only route to power is taking on the Tories directly on their record, offering their alternative future, and a fair choice to put back to the people in a referendum on brexit. Good luck with that, it's looking like an extreme form of wishful thinking to me. By “wishful thinking” I assume you mean pish? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 By “wishful thinking” I assume you mean pish?Aye, industrial grade. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 21 minutes ago, welshbairn said: I'm a recent convert to Corbynistaism, and a remainer from head to toe, my only limit is destroying faith in democracy on its alter. People have to be offered a genuine choice to justify a second referendum. Good article here on that "vote" https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/23/labour-elite-wins-a-battle-but-it-might-have-just-lost-the-war 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAD Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Do folk really think there is any appetite at all for this Labour deal? I reckon the thought of Jezza pottering about Strasbourg or Brussells trying to get his "jobs first" Brexit for another 9 months before another referendum will just put people off even more. This election is going to to fought on no deal v's remain. Nobody actually wants Jeremey's as yet undefined deal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForzaDundee Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Just watched that video from the vote on BBC. Utter clusterfuck, I am very smart intelligent but even I don't have a clue what Labour stand for or what this all means or what the factions in Labour are anymore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonwell Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 hour ago, welshbairn said: That's exactly why he could convincingly get a better deal to offer to Leavers. There would have been no prospect if Labour were offering Lib Dem lite. Labour's only route to power is taking on the Tories directly on their record, offering their alternative future, and a fair choice to put back to the people in a referendum on brexit. You seem a decent sort Welshbairn but honestly this is clutching at straws on an H_B scale. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, GAD said: Do folk really think there is any appetite at all for this Labour deal? I reckon the thought of Jezza pottering about Strasbourg or Brussells trying to get his "jobs first" Brexit for another 9 months before another referendum will just put people off even more. This election is going to to fought on no deal v's remain. Nobody actually wants Jeremey's as yet undefined deal. Nobody gave a shit about the EU before the referendum, I doubt they do now. I'm sure it's way down the list of average punter's priorities. The next election will be won because the press critique Labour's spending plans to a ridiculous detail while allowing the Conservatives to promise us all a sookie off Natalie Portman without comment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, ForzaDundee said: Just watched that video from the vote on BBC. Utter clusterfuck, I am very smart intelligent but even I don't have a clue what Labour stand for or what this all means or what the factions in Labour are anymore. Did you watch it unedited from catch up from live on Parliament TV? The chair lost the plot but I thought the vote was blindingly obvious. The C4 edit was just weird. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, Londonwell said: You seem a decent sort Welshbairn but honestly this is clutching at straws on an H_B scale. The SNP have stayed on the right track, but for Labour to go on this one would be suicidal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonwell Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, welshbairn said: The SNP have stayed on the right track, but for Labour to go on this one would be suicidal. It’s all too late for Labour anyway. Their position to (god I hate using this phrase) ‘the person on the street’ remains as clear as mud. They’ve been sidelined on the biggest issue in decades due to their own infighting/indecision and in my opinion (and most others) will pay for it at the next election. As will the rest of us if the Tories run away with it. A true abdication of duty and leadership from Labour. Pretty shameful really, when Corbyn was meant to bring some ‘honesty’ back into politics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Londonwell said: It’s all too late for Labour anyway. Their position to (god I hate using this phrase) ‘the person on the street’ remains as clear as mud. They’ve been sidelined on the biggest issue in decades due to their own infighting/indecision and in my opinion (and most others) will pay for it at the next election. As will the rest of us if the Tories run away with it. A true abdication of duty and leadership from Labour. Pretty shameful really, when Corbyn was meant to bring some ‘honesty’ back into politics. The "person on the street" wouldn't think a party promising to negotiate for the best deal with the EU while at the same time campaigning for Remain was being remotely honest, imo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Just watched that video from the vote on BBC. Utter clusterfuck, I am very smart intelligent but even I don't have a clue what Labour stand for or what this all means or what the factions in Labour are anymore. "I am very smart intelligent"Did ye, aye? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonwell Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 15 minutes ago, welshbairn said: The "person on the street" wouldn't think a party promising to negotiate for the best deal with the EU while at the same time campaigning for Remain was being remotely honest, imo. The proof will be in the pudding come election time, I guess. I feel fairly comfortable with my prediction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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