What is the point of Labour ?

[Kuro]

1 hour ago, Pet Jeden said:

We shouldn't. But I reckon a chunk of SNP voters either see an SNP vote as simply an anti-Tory vote to fight at Westminster and another chunk only see independence as  a vehicle for escaping conservatism. Whereas, I would think if you asked 100 Irish people, would you rather endure 100 years of continuous "conservative" policies from the Dail or reunite with a Labour controlled UK , all 100 would give you a pretty clear answer.

Aye but they've been independent for a hundred years it's totally different.  Once Scotland had been independent for a century I don't think one Tory government would lead to calls to scrap it all and hand control of your country to another.  As it hapoens, if Scotland voted Tory I would accept it as that would be what the people of Scotland wanted, but the fact is it would happen very rarely if ever.

[Detournement]

"Our Tories are essentially Lib Dems"

FFS

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I spent a lot of time reading and trying to make a post that I could stand behind. 
How can you compete with googling up a facebook quote you think says things you like but have no idea how true they are? You will simply get swamped with googled cut and pastes. 

I actually do check facts - and I'm no fan of Corbyn - there is some real hypocritical shite out there regards speaking to terrorists.

My biggest criticism of him regards Middle East politics is not the speaking to Hezbollah etc but the more dubious fellow travellers he seems to get involved with - the ones who use anti-zionism as a cloak for their own antisemitism.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

"Our Tories are essentially Lib Dems"

FFS

I think he means numerically, you missed out "in material impact."

[Arsenal till I die]

On 12/11/2019 at 17:44, dorlomin said:

This reminds me more and more of the Republicans and Donald Trump, the message that Trump was a racist buffoon came from people his early supporters loathed and those deeply politically opposed to him. So they continued to brush off all the small allegations as he gained popularity in the primaries. The more he said the unsayable and seemed to be a revitalising of old ways, the more they ignored the criticism and bought the hype.

Anyone on the left knew where Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott's politics were. They were tolerated and left alone as a harmless fringe, popular with the "left of Labour" activists and the remnants of the Bennites, but that was it. 

They were are pro IRA as you could get in public life in the UK while the Provisionals were planning and executing terror attacks in the United Kingdom and occasionally in the Republic of Ireland. The Provisionals were a terrorist organisation who not only attacked the "British State" etc, but also attacked large number of innocent people in the UK and Northern Ireland including many within their "own community" for what ever reasons they saw fit. This was at a time when there was democratic outlets for their politics. This was not South Africa 1958.  The Social Democratic Labour Party won the majority of the nationalist vote during "The Troubles" and was committed to peace.

The UK government had had contacts and negotiations with the PIRA since 1972 including negotiating cease fires such as in June/July 1972 and the 1975 cease fire. It is a fantasy to try to preset the clique around the likes of McDonnell as some kind of "go betweens" for peace. There were far more credible figures available to any party requiring such contacts across Northern Ireland and the Republic. 

Hansards Online does not go far back enough but I have dredged this up. 

 

 

This is in the immediate aftermath of the Enniskillen bombing. 

-There is no assigning responsibility for the killing to those who planted the bombs. 

-No call to open negotiations.

-No call for "all sides" to enter a cease fire and try to work on a political solution.

-No call for an election for a democratic mandate for a solution. 

This is simply the demand to immediately acquiesce to PIRA demands. For all intents and purposes it may as well be a Provo press release. 

Arguably, post Good Friday Agreement, this should all be water under a very bitter bridge. But I hear little remorse from the likes of Corbyn over what happened and now his role is being white washed into some kind of messiah of peace. At best his judgement was very very questionable, at worst he was an outright supporter of murderous violence to terrorise people to enforce a solution they could not win by elections. 

May and Johnson were happy to be supported by the DUP who are steeped in sectarianism and have a long history of close links with violent thugs.  Just because Corbyn had his tongue up the Provos arse does not make voting Tory a morally justifiable choice, but just because the Tories are amoral  shits means its ok to rewrite the past of the leader of the Labour party. Being anti Blair did not suddenly make people pro Michael Howard. 

 

Its pushing water up a hill on this one. 

"at worst he was an outright supporter of murderous violence to terrorise people to enforce a solution they could not win by elections." That one line sums up your entire post and gives away the entire motivation behind it. Call for NI to stay in the UK=good. The status quo=democracy. Upholding the status quo=upholding democracy. Wanting a UI=bad. Wanting something that isn't the status quo=bad and anti-democracy. Nothing about the electoral rigging that lead to the protests in the 60s. Nothing about the terrorising of people by the Loyalists which the British government colluded with and the way doing so can undermine democracy. Nothing about the countless refugees who had to leave NI just for being Catholics. No, NI was a haven of democracy where people who wanted a United Ireland were free to campaign and vote and win hearts and minds without being shut up by terror! The provos were scum, and there were cases of sectarianism on the Republican side but this was never the end goal, the Loyalists already had what they wanted so why break into people's homes and murder pregnant women who had no views on constitutional affairs just for being Catholic? With intelligence and arms that had been supplied by the British government? And if the Tories are so pro Democracy why try and block referenda in Scotland and NI despite a) Brexit and b) The UI parties having the most seats in Belfast and sharing the popular vote in the 2017 GE in NI? Terrorism never works, almost always sets the cause back and I will call out anyone who says otherwise. I include McDonnell in this and I also include anyone who thinks the threat of nuclear terrorism will keep us safe, or that terrorism in Dresden helped to win us the war. And spare me your Zionist style "not South Africa" crap, I'm not interested. Plenty of black activists have expressed support for ending discrimination in both Ireland and in Palestine, so don't even go there.

[John Lambies Doos]

Genuine question: is it independence or socialism that you most want? If, in 10-15 years time, Scotland is independent but is governed by a conservative government, while rUK is Labour/LibDem, would you then want reunification?

I would accept the democratic will of Scotland

[doulikefish]

Jezza is in Dundee today

Dont think he is enjoying his 48hrs in jockoland[emoji23]

[SweeperDee]

4 minutes ago, doulikefish said:

Jezza is in Dundee today
 

 

Dont think he is enjoying his 48hrs in jockoland

 

Fucking GIRUH.  Surprised Corbyn has the brass neck to come here tbh. 

[BawWatchin]

8 minutes ago, doulikefish said:

Jezza is in Dundee today
 

 

Dont think he is enjoying his 48hrs in jockoland

Sounds like a complete arsehole tbh.

 

 

 

The drunken guy shouting over him wasn't much better either.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Sounds like a complete arsehole tbh.
 
 
 
The drunken guy shouting over him wasn't much better either.

I agree with your point about the drunk guy but i’d counter that with Corbyn really doesnt seem to bother much with Scotland, so I get the mans anger, he clearly has no clue about the political discourse in Scotland nor the feeling of the people here, Its probably been a while since a Labour member in Dundee actually got up close with a senior westminster politician as they dont really bother their bahookie with Scotland besides visiting carefully sterilised places. So yeh the guy maybe went about it the wrong way but f**k me the Labour party comes off far worse. Which is nice.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

It's virtually impossible to come to Scotland, and look more like an anti-Scottish outsider than the Tories.....but somehow Labour managed it. 

Chapeau.

It's remarkable how uncomfortable both Johnson and Corbyn look when visiting Scotland. They don't understand us socially, culturally or politically, and it shows. 

I suspect that they're scared of firstly appearing on SNP home turf, and secondly of making some massive f**k-up.....calling us 'porridge wogs' by mistake or getting 'Scotch' and 'Scots' mixed up. They want to get in, get a few photos taken, and then f**k off again before a guy playing the Star Wars theme at full volume follows them down the street on a bike. 

 

[ICTJohnboy]

Corbyn on BBC News  :  "Scotland is suffering from bad housing, poverty and is badly in need of major investment in infrastructure"

Cun't obviously needs to spend more time looking around his own doorstep.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8331262/britains-most-deprived-areas-revealed-including-benefits-street-town-and-stag-do-central-as-pm-promises-cash-boost-to-hard-hit-areas/

 

[DA Baracus]

1 hour ago, Bob Mahelp said:

It's virtually impossible to come to Scotland, and look more like an anti-Scottish outsider than the Tories.....but somehow Labour managed it. 

Chapeau.

It's remarkable how uncomfortable both Johnson and Corbyn look when visiting Scotland. They don't understand us socially, culturally or politically, and it shows. 

I suspect that they're scared of firstly appearing on SNP home turf, and secondly of making some massive f**k-up.....calling us 'porridge wogs' by mistake or getting 'Scotch' and 'Scots' mixed up. They want to get in, get a few photos taken, and then f**k off again before a guy playing the Star Wars theme at full volume follows them down the street on a bike. 

 

Worse is that it seems they don't want to understand Scotland. A horrendous bag of arrogant scumbags (both Labour and the Conservatives) who can't even be bothered to hide their sneering contempt for everyone in Scotland, even the pathetic bootlickers who still support them.

They just pop up to patronise us and tell us to keep being good wee subjects and to keep eating our cereal and to not listen to that nasty lady who says otherwise. They do it so half heartedly though, as it's just a complete chore to them and they only care about Scotland in the sense of any money at all that they can make from the country, as they know they won't get enough votes to make any difference to a General Election.

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by DA Baracus

[GordonS]

5 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

Worse is that it seems they don't want to understand Scotland. A horrendous bag of arrogant scumbags (both Labour and the Conservatives) who can't even be bothered to hide their sneering contempt for everyone in Scotland, even the pathetic bootlickers who still support them.

They just pop up to patronise us and tell us to keep being good wee subjects and to keep eating our cereal and to not listen to that nasty lady who says otherwise. They do it so half heartedly though, as it's just a complete chore to them and they only care about Scotland in the sense of any money at all that they can make from the country, as they know they won't get enough votes to make any difference to a General Election.

 

In fairness, had the Tories not gained 12 seats in Scotland at the last general election then their pact with the DUP wouldn't have been enough to get a majority. They'd have had 305 seats, with the DUP that's 315, while Labour+SNP+PC+Green would have had 314. The Lib Dems' 12 would have determined the government.

So those 12 Scottish seats changing hands probably won the Tories the election.

[Fullerene]

3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

To be fair, it must be impossible to be a politician these days.

I can't remember a time where the general population was so entitled and childish with such little respect for each other.

How did we get to a point where people think it's OK to continually chuck appalling abuse at others whilst simultaneously expecting to be treated in a respectful manner themselves?

What utterly broken and fucked up mindset does that require?

Personally I would blame the gutter press who print front pages and headlines that are simply deplorable.

They set the mood and their readers follow.

One of the worst things about the UK is the number of extremely rich unelected newspaper owners who can literally dictate the political agenda.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Fullerene

[Dons_1988]

4 hours ago, oaksoft said:

To be fair, it must be impossible to be a politician these days.

I can't remember a time where the general population was so entitled and childish with such little respect for each other.

How did we get to a point where people think it's OK to continually chuck appalling abuse at others whilst simultaneously expecting to be treated in a respectful manner themselves?

What utterly broken and fucked up mindset does that require?

At the risk of sounding like an absolute yer da, I do blame social media for this.

A lot of people are increasingly self righteous and horribly abusive in equal measure on these platforms.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

At the risk of sounding like an absolute yer da, I do blame social media for this.

A lot of people are increasingly self righteous and horribly abusive in equal measure on these platforms.

Island dwellers + lack of education + propaganda from written press + social media = Mr and Mrs Gammon fuckwit from Grimsby (other dead-end shitholes are available).

Yes, I'm very self-righteous, I know it. But I'm right.

 

[Ira Gaines]

It's a fine line between voicing displeasure at MPs and abuse. Personally I think Tories deserve a lot of what they they get because they hate the vulnerable and are responsible for thousands of deaths. But that's me.

I'd never support a death threat to a Tory MP. Ever. If a Tory MP was murdered, there's no way I'd celebrate, condone or defend it. I think we live in a time where lots would.

[Dons_1988]

21 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Island dwellers + lack of education + propaganda from written press + social media = Mr and Mrs Gammon fuckwit from Grimsby (other dead-end shitholes are available).

Yes, I'm very self-righteous, I know it. But I'm right.

 

No arguments from me that you're right (although I still can't get onboard with the term 'gammon').

The problem is the internet attitude (and this isn't directed at you personally) is that being right gives me a mandate to speak however I like to those who are wrong.

And the second problem is that Mr and Mrs Gammon from Grimsby are equally convinced that they are right and are as abusive right back. It's just a terrible form of discourse.

[DA Baracus]

5 hours ago, GordonS said:

In fairness, had the Tories not gained 12 seats in Scotland at the last general election then their pact with the DUP wouldn't have been enough to get a majority. They'd have had 305 seats, with the DUP that's 315, while Labour+SNP+PC+Green would have had 314. The Lib Dems' 12 would have determined the government.

So those 12 Scottish seats changing hands probably won the Tories the election.

Or any other 12 seats anywhere else.