Israel lobby v Corbyn

[G51]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

 

The left are owned. I know good people in Labour and SNP that are committed socialists and it’s hard to find it anything other than futile. The numbers and power just aren’t there. I’ve said it before but it’s hard to feel much enthusiasm for Scottish indy beyond getting it up every c**t down south who’s contributed to making this country so horrible because the shift in optics up here has moved so decisively to a Third Way managerial centre that I can’t see anything other than stagnation in the short to medium term.

Scottish independence's main advantage is that it devolves more power closer to the people, and the electoral system and smaller population means the left has a greater chance of building a movement.

If these things don't happen, then we're just going to end up in exactly the same situation as we are now, but under a Saltire instead of a Union Flag.

[HTG]

11 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

The left are owned. I know good people in Labour and SNP that are committed socialists and it’s hard to find it anything other than futile. The numbers and power just aren’t there. I’ve said it before but it’s hard to feel much enthusiasm for Scottish indy beyond getting it up every c**t down south who’s contributed to making this country so horrible because the shift in optics up here has moved so decisively to a Third Way managerial centre that I can’t see anything other than stagnation in the short to medium term.

 

Understand where you're coming from but maybe the optic is relative. If we remain tied to rUK then we'll be pulled increasingly further right. If the choice is that or centrist for a while I'll take the latter. 

[Ziggy Sobotka]

17 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

^has a “starkly communist, Marxist agenda”, imo. 

[Detournement]

McDonnell basically saying to left wing members don't take the bait. That's the correct position but definitely a frustrating one. There is no way they will be able to expel him over that statement or the report.

This has been inevitable since the Corbyn leadership gave ground on every stupid accusation. They should have set out their stall on Marc Wadsworth and called the entire farce out for what it is. 

[GordonS]

51 minutes ago, G51 said:

To be clear, antisemitism absolutely is a real issue among the left and in the Labour Party. It's not as endemic as it is in the far-right, but it does exist and must be rooted out.

But significantly less than 1% of Labour members had an anti-semitism disciplinary charge levelled against them. This is an issue that needs to be tackled, but it's nowhere close to the scale of anti-Traveller, Islamophobic or anti-BAME racism in this country, for example.

The fact that the left goes through the mill on antisemitism and the Tories go without coverage or investigation on these other issues proves Detournement's point.

That strikes me as whataboutery, tbh.

I'd agree there's a difference, but I don't think it's the Tories getting less scrutiny. I think the reason for the distinction is that there is massively more mainstream acceptance of Islamophobia then of antisemitism, with no end of unctuous turds trying to hide behind free speech in order to stoke hatred of Muslims.

I also think a certain amount of expectation of racism is priced in with the Tories. Labour are supposed to the the party fighting injustice, inequality and discrimination, and you can't do that when a very large slice of your party and the people around your leader continually say and do anti-Semitic things, and the leader openly accepts it.

Also, to the usual numpty who's going through this thread handing our reddies - grow up.

[Ira Gaines]

HB pretending to care about bigotry is some going, given his determination to say nothing bad about the white supremacist that's leading a country.

[NotThePars]

Scottish independence's main advantage is that it devolves more power closer to the people, and the electoral system and smaller population means the left has a greater chance of building a movement.
If these things don't happen, then we're just going to end up in exactly the same situation as we are now, but under a Saltire instead of a Union Flag.

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts on this. My main concern is that the left is divided over independence and divided between the parties with little organising beyond those dividers. On top of that there’s a worrying trend of people who insist on burying these concerns until independence is achieved which is leaving us at a massive disadvantage cause it’s clear that the forces of capital are already preparing for independence which looks virtually inevitable. Finally, as much as we consider ourselves generally switched on I’m worried that we’ve actually largely switched off since 2014 and independence will just see a bigger disengagement as people will think “job done”.

Understand where you're coming from but maybe the optic is relative. If we remain tied to rUK then we'll be pulled increasingly further right. If the choice is that or centrist for a while I'll take the latter. 

Yea, of course. I hope what I’m saying doesn’t suggest that I don’t think an independent Scotland won’t be better than what we have currently cause I do.

[GordonS]

5 minutes ago, Detournement said:

McDonnell basically saying to left wing members don't take the bait. That's the correct position but definitely a frustrating one. There is no way they will be able to expel him over that statement or the report.

This has been inevitable since the Corbyn leadership gave ground on every stupid accusation. They should have set out their stall on Marc Wadsworth and called the entire farce out for what it is. 

The idea that this is bait, and therefore not real, is *exactly* how they got themselves into this state. People need to drop the denial and accept these criticisms from EHRC are completely right.

Until a few years ago I didn't realise that a lot of the people saying the same things as me about Israel were anti-Semitic. I do now. 

[NotThePars]

I also think a certain amount of expectation of racism is priced in with the Tories. Labour are supposed to the the party fighting injustice, inequality and discrimination, and you can't do that when a very large slice of your party and the people around your leader continually say and do anti-Semitic things, and the leader openly accepts it.
Also, to the usual numpty who's going through this thread handing our reddies - grow up.

“A very large slice of your party” wasn’t the number of complaints found to correspond to like 0.1% of the membership?

[Detournement]

6 minutes ago, GordonS said:

The idea that this is bait, and therefore not real, is *exactly* how they got themselves into this state. People need to drop the denial and accept these criticisms from EHRC are completely right.

Until a few years ago I didn't realise that a lot of the people saying the same things as me about Israel were anti-Semitic. I do now. 

The bait is suspending Corbyn.

The EHRC only found two cases of anti-Semitism neither of which were particularly serious or outwith UK political norms.

[G51]

9 minutes ago, GordonS said:

That strikes me as whataboutery, tbh.

I'd agree there's a difference, but I don't think it's the Tories getting less scrutiny. I think the reason for the distinction is that there is massively more mainstream acceptance of Islamophobia then of antisemitism, with no end of unctuous turds trying to hide behind free speech in order to stoke hatred of Muslims.

I also think a certain amount of expectation of racism is priced in with the Tories. Labour are supposed to the the party fighting injustice, inequality and discrimination, and you can't do that when a very large slice of your party and the people around your leader continually say and do anti-Semitic things, and the leader openly accepts it.

Also, to the usual numpty who's going through this thread handing our reddies - grow up.

Do you not think the fact that mainstream acceptance of things like Islamophobia and anti-Traveller racism is present is exactly why this is a legitimate complaint? That being lectured on antiracism by a collection of racists undermines the very real efforts to tackle antisemitism on the left?

Also, you say "very large slice" but as we discussed, we're talking about less than1% of members here. The resolution of cases also improved once the left took control of the process in 2018. None of these things are being discussed at the minute, because this appears to be about factionalism rather than antisemitism.

[GiGi]

Does anti-Israel = anti-semitism? For example if you think the Israeli government are c***s but have no thoughts on Judaism one way or the other are you still an anti-semite?

[G51]

8 minutes ago, GiGi said:

Does anti-Israel = anti-semitism? For example if you think the Israeli government are c***s but have no thoughts on Judaism one way or the other are you still an anti-semite?

This is a complex question. A lot of Jewish people view Israel as a safe haven and a spiritual homeland, which is understandable following the Holocaust. So it's easy to see why criticism of Israel is sometimes construed as antisemitism.

Without writing a big long post on it, my take would be that it is possible to criticise Israel and Israeli lobbyists without being antisemitic, but that a lot of people who try to do this use phrases or terms that are either antisemitic by definition or are rooted in antisemitism.

Jewdas put something together on this that is much better than anything I could type here: https://twitter.com/jewdas/status/981442424122806278?s=20

Edited October 29, 2020 by G51

[Ziggy Sobotka]

24 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts on this. My main concern is that the left is divided over independence and divided between the parties with little organising beyond those dividers. On top of that there’s a worrying trend of people who insist on burying these concerns until independence is achieved which is leaving us at a massive disadvantage cause it’s clear that the forces of capital are already preparing for independence which looks virtually inevitable. Finally, as much as we consider ourselves generally switched on I’m worried that we’ve actually largely switched off since 2014 and independence will just see a bigger disengagement as people will think "job done"

 

Is it not more likely that the middle of the road, empty jerseys in the SNP/Yes will see it as "job done" ? It'll be a "job has just begun" for the left.

Unfortunately, the situation means the building of a broad church left political party won't or can't happen until after independence.

Will there be a wholesale reorganisation of party politics in Scotland ? Will the 'job done' lot form the centrist managerial successor party to the SNP alongside Labour and Lib Dem careerists ?

Take away the constitution, how much material difference is there between Marie Black, Paul Sweeney and Patrick Harvie ?

[HTG]

5 minutes ago, GiGi said:

Does anti-Israel = anti-semitism? For example if you think the Israeli government are c***s but have no thoughts on Judaism one way or the other are you still an anti-semite?

Seems very easy to have them intertwine. The aggressive land grabbing and its impact on those from whom the land is being grabbed isn't a Jewish thing to me. It's just pish behaviour. I'm not anti Islamic either but the scattering bombing of Yemen by the Saudis is also just pish. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The Chakrabarti report was a whitewash - but this report is a complete and utter joke.

 

PS I am embarrassed to admit that I actually recruited Iain McNicol to the Labour Party.

 

He's an utter backstabbing weasel of a man.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Granny Danger]

There are some in our society who undoubtedly mean ‘anti-Jew’ when they say anti-Israel.

IMO there’s more who use the accusation of anti-Semitism as a deflection when they are trying to quash criticism of Israel.

Anti-Semitism is a form of racism and for all his faults I have never considered Corbyn a racist; quite the reverse.

I hold the Jewish religion in the same contempt I hold all religions but I despise what the Zionists in Israel have done and are still doing to the Palestinians and equally despise those countries who are turning a blind eye to that persecution.

 

 

[Ziggy Sobotka]

25 minutes ago, GiGi said:

Does anti-Israel = anti-semitism? For example if you think the Israeli government are c***s but have no thoughts on Judaism one way or the other are you still an anti-semite?

It depends on how it's framed.

Just as some try to mask their antisemitism with criticism of Israel, others maliciously accuse critics to try and discredit legitimate concerns regarding the behaviour of the Israeli government and security forces.

[Detournement]

Labour won't answer the question of on what grounds Jez is suspended and it also appears that LOTO office was involved (which is apparently illegal)

Good old Keith!

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

 

“A very large slice of your party” wasn’t the number of complaints found to correspond to like 0.1% of the membership?

 

If you think the number of complaints constitutes the totality of the members with those views, you're obviously choosing an interpretation to suit your opinions.