Israel lobby v Corbyn

[Moomintroll]

2 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

Whatsapp group?

What the f**k are you on about?

Ignore me, ongoing shite in the Heads Gone/Coronavirus threads.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

These posts are actually making me miss Dormolin

 

Fucking settle 

[Detournement]

Just now, Dunning1874 said:

Am I picking this up correctly? The report criticises the Labour Party for acting illegally through leadership interference in the disciplinary process. In every instance that the leadership acted illegally, it was in interfering to push for harsher or quicker punishments in cases of antisemitism. When the leadership found recurrent problems in the disciplinary process in failing to take action on antisemitism they then reformed it, with these reforms leading to a 200% increase in cases being heard in 2019 v 2018.

The conclusion which is being drawn from that finding is that their illegal action proves the leadership allowed antisemitism to take root in the party. The fact they interfered with investigations to push for harsher and faster punishments then introduced reforms to the disciplinary process, which increased the number of cases being heard and how quickly they were resolved, is proof they were deliberately obstructing that process.

What Kafka novel is this?

The details don't matter. The Guardian and BBC stories and Starmer's response were prepared months ago. 

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Perkin Flump said:

I genuinely feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn, I have actually had the chance to talk to him & I believe he is a good person but he has been led down the rabbit hole by people with darker agendas than him & the decent, socialist aims he believes in are drowned out by a combination of those people who have starkly Marxist, Communist agendas & the media in this Country who consistently painted him as something he is not because of those around him. He is a decent person, he was never a credible Leader of the Opposition, neither would he ever be a Prime Minister.

I must start using a sarcasm emoji if there is such a thing.

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

When did he challenge power? 

When they were 1000 votes away from being the biggest party despite the internal wrecking operation.

 

[Moomintroll]

3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I must start using a sarcasm emoji if there is such a thing.

I honestly believe that Jeremy Corbyn was overwhelmed by finding himself in the position he did & gave too much power & credence to some of the people who got him there, the noisiest wheels always get the most oil & sadly those wheels were spouting Anti-Semitic, Marxist nonsense that was attributed to him personally. 

 

 

 

[NotThePars]

Labour has completely lost young voters in England by doing this. Finished as a meaningful political party - they're going back to the days of abstaining on welfare cuts and controls on immigration mugs. A new party will emerge and usurp them.

 

I don’t agree with the last sentence but totally agree on the first and am neutral on the middle. Finished as a positive progressive force but still a political party with some clout.

 

Matt Christman keeps characterising the American Presidential elections as a contest conducted exclusively for the children of the 60s and the divide is over whether you believe the social changes were a good thing or a bad thing. Sir Keir Starmer is determined to make politics in England functionally the same thing where it’s utterly meaningless to you unless you’re over the age of 40 and earn upwards of 50 grand a year.

 

The only saving grace about being on the left is that you can wear a “don’t blame me, I voted for Corbyn” t shirt when it’s 2050 and you’re having to evacuate the people of Kirkcaldy by boat because Fife is now mostly underwater.

[Detournement]

Just now, Perkin Flump said:

I honestly believe that Jeremy Corbyn was overwhelmed by finding himself in the position he did & gave too much power & credence to some of the people who got him there, the noisiest wheels always get the most oil & sadly those wheels were spouting Anti-Semitic, Marxist nonsense that was attributed to him personally. 

 

 

 

That's just nonsense in your head though. The full power of British right wing reaction investigated Labour under Corbyn and came up with only two allegations of illegal anti semitism neither of which he nor anyone close to him was responsible for.

 

[G51]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

 

I don’t agree with the last sentence but totally agree on the first and am neutral on the middle. Finished as a positive progressive force but still a political party with some clout.

Matt Christman keeps characterising the American Presidential elections as a contest conducted exclusively for the children of the 60s and the divide is over whether you believe the social changes were a good thing or a bad thing. Sir Keir Starmer is determined to make politics in England functionally the same thing where it’s utterly meaningless to you unless you’re over the age of 40 and earn upwards of 50 grand a year.

The only saving grace about being on the left is that you can wear a “don’t blame me, I voted for Corbyn” when it’s 2050 and you’re having to evacuate the people of Kirkcaldy by boat because Fife is now mostly underwater.

There's no way the people who powered Labours last campaign are going to sit and take this from scum like Iain MacNicol. They'll set up a new party because they'll have no choice but to - the left won't vote for Labour anymore. I think there's something in the Biden-Trump election analogy.

None of this will matter for Scotland, because when 2024 comes around Scotland will be independent. But what the Scottish left MUST realise is that the centrists are always going to side with the fascists over the left, every time. They might whine and lie about being progressive, but when it comes to enacting any meaningful change they will kill it at the first opportunity they get.

The real danger is that Scotland becomes independent and the left thinks the battle is won. It isn't. The SNP needs to be pressured into writing in protections on human rights into a Scottish constitution. Because let me tell you, that party is full of centrists in powerful positions and they will resist doing so as much as they can.

[Moomintroll]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

That's just nonsense in your head though. The full power of British right wing reaction investigated Labour under Corbyn and came up with only two allegations of illegal anti semitism neither of which he nor anyone close to him was responsible for.

 

You are even more deluded than willy talking about ra sellick if you are trying to claim that anti-semitism is not an issue amidst the extreme left wing elements of the Labour Party. It is utterly & absolutely endemic, why, after over 2000 years of persecution, do people still hate Jews so much?

[G51]

4 minutes ago, Perkin Flump said:

You are even more deluded than willy talking about ra sellick if you are trying to claim that anti-semitism is not an issue amidst the extreme left wing elements of the Labour Party. It is utterly & absolutely endemic, why, after over 2000 years of persecution, do people still hate Jews so much?

To be clear, antisemitism absolutely is a real issue among the left and in the Labour Party. It's not as endemic as it is in the far-right, but it does exist and must be rooted out.

But significantly less than 1% of Labour members had an anti-semitism disciplinary charge levelled against them. This is an issue that needs to be tackled, but it's nowhere close to the scale of anti-Traveller, Islamophobic or anti-BAME racism in this country, for example.

The fact that the left goes through the mill on antisemitism and the Tories go without coverage or investigation on these other issues proves Detournement's point.

[Newbornbairn]

36 minutes ago, Perkin Flump said:

I genuinely feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn, I have actually had the chance to talk to him & I believe he is a good person but he has been led down the rabbit hole by people with darker agendas than him & the decent, socialist aims he believes in are drowned out by a combination of those people who have starkly Marxist, Communist agendas & the media in this Country who consistently painted him as something he is not because of those around him. He is a decent person, he was never a credible Leader of the Opposition, neither would he ever be a Prime Minister.

I'd agree with this. He's a left wing Nice but Dim.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

1 minute ago, G51 said:

To be clear, antisemitism absolutely is a real issue among the left and in the Labour Party. It's not as endemic as it is in the far-right, but it does exist and must be rooted out.

But significantly less than 1% of Labour members had an anti-semitism disciplinary charge levelled against them. This is an issue that needs to be tackled, but it's nowhere close to the scale of anti-Traveller, Islamophobic or anti-BAME racism in this country, for example.

The fact that the left goes through the mill on antisemitism and the Tories go without coverage or investigation on these other issues proves Detournement's point.

I'm fairly sure there are fairly recent high profile examples of all of these in the higher ranks of the Conservative Party. Looking forward to Johnson, Ross and whoever else being suspended in the next few days. 

[G51]

1 minute ago, Day of the Lords said:

I'm fairly sure there are fairly recent high profile examples of all of these in the higher ranks of the Conservative Party. Looking forward to Johnson, Ross and whoever else being suspended in the next few days. 

Anyone remember the independent investigation into Islamophobia in the Tory Party that Johnson promised to launch in exchange for the EHRC not pursuing one? Anyone know how that's getting on?

[Dunning1874]

Here we go...

[Benjamin_Nevis]

18 minutes ago, G51 said:

Anyone remember the independent investigation into Islamophobia in the Tory Party that Johnson promised to launch in exchange for the EHRC not pursuing one? Anyone know how that's getting on?

A perfect example is Johnson's now infamous quote in regards to Muslim women, part of which was: 

"I would go further and say it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letterboxes"

This man is now Prime Minister.

Let's pretend Corbyn has said something similar, over the appearance for example, of Hasidic Jews: 

"I would go further and say it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around in silly hats, with strange haircuts and beards". 

There would, quite rightly, have been absolute uproar. I am no fan of Corbyn or Labour, but the rank hypocrisy employed in regards to a comparatively minor issue of anti-semitism within Labour's left and the blatant, dog-whistling racism which is actually endemic within the Conservative Party is incredible. Indeed we have both the UK Prime Minister AND the Northern Branch Office Manager, Douglas Ross making disparaging comments over Muslims and Travellers respectively. That is an absolute scandal. 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Day of the Lords

[Dunning1874]

Some leadership interference is permissible, it seems.

[Ziggy Sobotka]

Moomintroll having a worse day than Jezza here.

[oneteaminglasgow]

1 minute ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Moomintroll having a worse day than Jezza here.

^has a “starkly communist, Marxist agenda”, imo. 

[NotThePars]

There's no way the people who powered Labours last campaign are going to sit and take this from scum like Iain MacNicol. They'll set up a new party because they'll have no choice but to - the left won't vote for Labour anymore. I think there's something in the Biden-Trump election analogy.
None of this will matter for Scotland, because when 2024 comes around Scotland will be independent. But what the Scottish left MUST realise is that the centrists are always going to side with the fascists over the left, every time. They might whine and lie about being progressive, but when it comes to enacting any meaningful change they will kill it at the first opportunity they get.
The real danger is that Scotland becomes independent and the left thinks the battle is won. It isn't. The SNP needs to be pressured into writing in protections on human rights into a Scottish constitution. Because let me tell you, that party is full of centrists in powerful positions and they will resist doing so as much as they can.

The left are owned. I know good people in Labour and SNP that are committed socialists and it’s hard to find it anything other than futile. The numbers and power just aren’t there. I’ve said it before but it’s hard to feel much enthusiasm for Scottish indy beyond getting it up every c**t down south who’s contributed to making this country so horrible because the shift in optics up here has moved so decisively to a Third Way managerial centre that I can’t see anything other than stagnation in the short to medium term.