Pyramid 2019/2020

[newcastle broon]

Latest English National league showing 4 Southern teams look like getting relegated. Gonnae pose mega problems as to who will go Conference North next season. Geographical issues in a country a good size bigger than ours? Whoever sets the boundaries for the HFL LL divide has a thankless task 

[Eednud]

Latest English National league showing 4 Southern teams look like getting relegated. Gonnae pose mega problems as to who will go Conference North next season. Geographical issues in a country a good size bigger than ours? Whoever sets the boundaries for the HFL LL divide has a thankless task 

Promoted teams from the Evo-Stick Southern League Central will probably move to National League North or they can always shift Gloucester City and Oxford City from National League South to National League North as both have been northerners before. Makes for bit more juggling further down the pyramid leagues though.

[honestly united]

42 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Latest English National league showing 4 Southern teams look like getting relegated. Gonnae pose mega problems as to who will go Conference North next season. Geographical issues in a country a good size bigger than ours? Whoever sets the boundaries for the HFL LL divide has a thankless task 

As England have a proper pyramid system it shouldn't cause any issues at all. You have a set number of teams who will be at that tier, as its only 2 leagues at the same tier the most northern half play in the north, the furthest south play in the south. It probably means teams in the midlands get shunted between the north and south league each year but thats how it works. 

If the SFA had any gumption they would have taken control of the whole situation and put in place a similar model but they haven't shown any signs of leadership and we are in the mess we are at the moment. The issue is you are playing at a certain tier (you get promoted or relegated to that tier) and the SFA should decide which league you go into ie Tier 5 should be either 32/36 clubs and the 16/18 furthest north are Highland and the rest Lowland. You could then have a number of leagues at Tier 6 feeding into Tier 5 but not tied to the league above (say South, West, East,  North) Bottom 2 tier 5 relegated, each champion promoted and leagues re-arranged each year geographically.

[newcastle broon]

1 minute ago, Eednud said:

Promoted teams from the Evo-Stick Southern League Central will probably move to National League North or they can always shift Gloucester City and Oxford City from National League South to National League North as both have been northerners before.

Yes theres been debate on here and I was just using it as an example as to where our boundaries will lie north/south of Tay  ?

Would never see Gloucester and Oxford as Northern sides  ?

Do boundaries get moved around in the English pyramid then  ?

[newcastle broon]

1 minute ago, honestly united said:

As England have a proper pyramid system it shouldn't cause any issues at all. You have a set number of teams who will be at that tier, as its only 2 leagues at the same tier the most northern half play in the north, the furthest south play in the south. It probably means teams in the midlands get shunted between the north and south league each year but thats how it works. 

If the SFA had any gumption they would have taken control of the whole situation and put in place a similar model but they haven't shown any signs of leadership and we are in the mess we are at the moment. The issue is you are playing at a certain tier (you get promoted or relegated to that tier) and the SFA should decide which league you go into ie Tier 5 should be either 32/36 clubs and the 16/18 furthest north are Highland and the rest Lowland. You could then have a number of leagues at Tier 6 feeding into Tier 5 but not tied to the league above (say South, West, East,  North) Bottom 2 tier 5 relegated, each champion promoted and leagues re-arranged each year geographically.

The main issue though being tier 5 HFL bottom club remains tier 5 whereas in the LL teams can go down at least 3 tiers. As much as there arent as many clubs North of the Tay that's just no a pyramid to me  ?

[Kilbowie Benches]

4 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Yes theres been debate on here and I was just using it as an example as to where our boundaries will lie north/south of Tay  ?

Would never see Gloucester and Oxford as Northern sides  ?

Do boundaries get moved around in the English pyramid then  ?

Clubs get moved on a regular basis! The FA just get them telt.

[newcastle broon]

11 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

Clubs get moved on a regular basis! The FA just get them telt.

The SFA canny do that though wi 2 different organisations  ? 

Only in Scotland would you see  2 sets of ancient ruling bodies governing the game though  ? 

[Kilbowie Benches]

Just now, newcastle broon said:

The SFA canny do that though wi 2 different organisations  ? 

Only in Scotland would you see  2 sets of ancient ruling bodies governing the game though  ? 

Tbf from what I’ve heard the FA did encounter many of the same problems as here at the moment with different leagues overlapping and others staying out of the pyramid at first.Its taken them years to resolve everything.

[Stag Nation]

12 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

The SFA canny do that though wi 2 different organisations  ? 

Only in Scotland would you see  2 sets of ancient ruling bodies governing the game though  ? 

But they are not equal. The SJFA is affiliated to the SFA, and all junior clubs are registered members of the SFA. They are, in all respects, "junior".

[Marten]

21 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

Tbf from what I’ve heard the FA did encounter many of the same problems as here at the moment with different leagues overlapping and others staying out of the pyramid at first.Its taken them years to resolve everything.

Correct, over time the overlap has been resolved by the FA by just telling clubs where to go. If you would apply a similar idea to Scotland, the ERJFA could cover "Central-East" (i.e. Tayside, Fife, Perthshire) and the EOS "south-east" (Borders, Lothians, Edinburgh). A similar thing could be done in the west with SOS covering "South-West" and the WRJFA "South-Central". The north can become "North-East" (NRJFA) and "North-West" (NCL, maybe Highlands/Islands would be a better name). 6 champions can get promoted, 3 teams relegated from tier 5. That and relegation from SPFL will mean teams will have to be moved around a fair bit in tiers 5 and 6 in the first few years, but eventually it would create pretty even regions. For tier 7 and below it can be sorted more on a regional basis, with probably amateurs tagging along at the bottom so every region will have a tier 7 at least.

[Ginaro]

59 minutes ago, honestly united said:

As England have a proper pyramid system it shouldn't cause any issues at all. You have a set number of teams who will be at that tier, as its only 2 leagues at the same tier the most northern half play in the north, the furthest south play in the south. It probably means teams in the midlands get shunted between the north and south league each year but thats how it works. 

If the SFA had any gumption they would have taken control of the whole situation and put in place a similar model but they haven't shown any signs of leadership and we are in the mess we are at the moment. The issue is you are playing at a certain tier (you get promoted or relegated to that tier) and the SFA should decide which league you go into ie Tier 5 should be either 32/36 clubs and the 16/18 furthest north are Highland and the rest Lowland. You could then have a number of leagues at Tier 6 feeding into Tier 5 but not tied to the league above (say South, West, East,  North) Bottom 2 tier 5 relegated, each champion promoted and leagues re-arranged each year geographically.

The problem in Scotland is one of geography and the lack of non-league teams in the middle at the boundary area. To do the same as England you'd need some of the Tayside/Angus teams to drop out of the SPFL and the Juniors to step up to make a fluid tier 5 viable.

Either that or reduce the number of national leagues so that it's more likely those teams will be in the regional leagues.

58 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Yes theres been debate on here and I was just using it as an example as to where our boundaries will lie north/south of Tay  ?

Would never see Gloucester and Oxford as Northern sides  ?

Do boundaries get moved around in the English pyramid then  ?

Gloucester were a National League North side from 2009 to 2017, and Oxford City from 2012 to 2015.

Have a look at the wikipedia pages for each year and you can see the spread of teams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_National_League#National_League_North

[newcastle broon]

5 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

 

Gloucester were a National League North side from 2009 to 2017, and Oxford City from 2012 to 2015.

Have a look at the wikipedia pages for each year and you can see the spread of teams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_National_League#National_League_North

Thanks Never disputed that,all I meant was that you should never see those sides  in a north pyramid structure considering where they are on a map

49 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

But they are not equal. The SJFA is affiliated to the SFA, and all junior clubs are registered members of the SFA. They are, in all respects, "junior".

I never said they were equal ?

[FairWeatherFan]

TheFA pyramid is still evolving and to some they are in the other extreme to the SFA. Instead of doing bugger all, theFA are trying to create a "perfect pyramid" that from National League down goes 1-2-4-8-16 not sure if it goes beyond.

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

Correct, over time the overlap has been resolved by the FA by just telling clubs where to go. If you would apply a similar idea to Scotland, the ERJFA could cover "Central-East" (i.e. Tayside, Fife, Perthshire) and the EOS "south-east" (Borders, Lothians, Edinburgh). A similar thing could be done in the west with SOS covering "South-West" and the WRJFA "South-Central". The north can become "North-East" (NRJFA) and "North-West" (NCL, maybe Highlands/Islands would be a better name). 6 champions can get promoted, 3 teams relegated from tier 5. That and relegation from SPFL will mean teams will have to be moved around a fair bit in tiers 5 and 6 in the first few years, but eventually it would create pretty even regions. For tier 7 and below it can be sorted more on a regional basis, with probably amateurs tagging along at the bottom so every region will have a tier 7 at least.

Where would the forth Valley fit in their by the explanaction could be either

[Marten]

13 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Where would the forth Valley fit in their by the explanaction could be either

Really just depends on the teams that are in tier 6. If the "English approach" gets copied, that would mean teams would be shifted from EOS to ERJFA (or vice versa) to balance the numbers on both sides.

[vikingTON]

Gloucester just get telt to play the likes of South Shields or any other Geordie mob south of the border, yet Tayside clubs are indulged in their rolling meltdown about ever having to play north of Aberdeen. 

[GordonS]

Imagine Elgin getting relegated and Cove getting sent to the Lowland League, or Berwick coming down and Kelty getting moved to the Highland League. It's obviously not an option for us at this stage.

[honestly united]

4 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

The main issue though being tier 5 HFL bottom club remains tier 5 whereas in the LL teams can go down at least 3 tiers. As much as there arent as many clubs North of the Tay that's just no a pyramid to me  ?

If you include the NCL / North Juniors / Tayside Juniors you could go down a few Tiers in the North.

You would think over time we should have a Tier 5 of North, LL East and LL West and in the most likely movement across Tiers would be Tayside moving North / East and probably about Lanarkshire for the move West / East.

[lionel hutz]

On 3/16/2019 at 10:55, Snafu said:

I haven't seen or heard anything either about the HL offering places in the league since the three Junior teams joined in 2009, I have no idea what he (Spyro) is on about.

I think he got confused between Banks o'Dee and Bridge of Don.

The travel thing, I find bizarre. If Tayport (for example) had to play in the HL, all but one game would be within a 3hr drive. If they had to play in Lowland then there would be a few teams in that 3hr ballpark - Dalbeattie for one. Especially with the A9 being duelled. Travel is become less and less of an issue.

[Marshmallo]

On 3/28/2019 at 14:22, GordonS said:

Imagine Elgin getting relegated and Cove getting sent to the Lowland League, or Berwick coming down and Kelty getting moved to the Highland League. It's obviously not an option for us at this stage.

Why not?