The F1 Thread

[parsforlife]

1 hour ago, Buzz Killington said:

Are Ferrari a midfield team now?

They definitely seem a marker,  not going to win anything but seem to hold off most of the pack,  it’s a case of you need to get past them before you can be considered in contention for podium spots

[Boo Khaki]

How long before the current Maranello team boss ends up wearing a pair of concrete wellies?

What is this? Their fourth guy in the past 7 or 8 years?

[Mr. Brightside]

One WDC in 20 years, incredible how a team can be that unsuccessful.

[The Golden God]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Brightside said:

One WDC in 20 years, incredible how a team can be that unsuccessful.

For the most iconic team in the sport and arguably in all of sport (I’d say only Madrid, Barcelona and Yankees are up there with them) it is getting quite embarrassing how long they’ve been without a title. The last time they actually had a chance late in the season was 2012 and that was cause Alonso dragged a tractor to the final race. I grew up in early 2000s with Schumacher and if you’d told 7 year old me they’d be this has I’d have not believed you and cried for days. 

[JamesP_81]

18 minutes ago, The Golden God said:

For the most iconic team in the sport and arguably in all of sport (I’d say only Madrid, Barcelona and Yankees are up there with them) it is getting quite embarrassing how long they’ve been without a title. The last time they actually had a chance late in the season was 2012 and that was cause Alonso dragged a tractor to the final race. I grew up in early 2000s with Schumacher and if you’d told 7 year old me they’d be this has I’d have not believed you and cried for days. 

I got into F1 in the early 90s when Ferrari were an absolute basket case of a team, the mythology of the famous scarlet Ferraris seeming as unbelievable as finding out that Tyrrell and Lotus were once all conquering teams.  Swings and roundabouts I guess.  

[Miguel Sanchez]

I think my favourite description of 2012 was a youtube comment I saw once saying Alonso dragged Henry the Hoover to within points of a championship. They seem to still be doing that, they're just a bit better looking now.

[doulikefish]

Still the last Ferrari world champ 

[Boo Khaki]

They've been left behind by the emergence of big corporate, in-house teams like Merc.

Before, it was Ferrari who did absolutely everything under their own roof, while Williams and McLaren always had to deal with relationships with Renault/Merc/Honda/Porsche etc, so they had the inherent advantage there even though they very rarely actually exploited it. There's a long-term efficiency, stability and efficacy about Merc, and even Red Bull to an extent, that Ferrari have not had to deal with prior to the last ten years, and it's making them look like bumbling amateurs by comparison.

It's not really Ferrari going backwards, more that they've stood still while a couple of other operations have surpassed them, and they are no longer able to get away with some of the 'foibles' that they used to. The only real time Ferrari has operated on that level was with the Todt/Brawn/Schumi triumvirate, and they just haven't had anything or anyone with that sort of drive, determination, and discipline around since, hence why they're not holding it together when confronted with Merc and RB.

Even when Kimi won the title it was still against a McLaren/Merc partnership, Williams-Toyota, BMW-Sauber, and Redbull was really in the formative years after the Stewart/Jaguar nonsense, so he wasn't really up against the behemoth that Merc are, or that Red Bull have become.

Merc v FIAT in any scenario; who are you backing?

[Mr. Brightside]

Kimi also won mainly due to squabbling between the McLaren drivers and Hamilton binning it in China.

[Mackie The Staggie]

1 hour ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

I think my favourite description of 2012 was a youtube comment I saw once saying Alonso dragged Henry the Hoover to within points of a championship. They seem to still be doing that, they're just a bit better looking now.

Still think Alonso wins the WDC that year if Grosjean hadn't tried to decapitate most of the field in Spa.  Ferrari had to replace the whole tub/chassis if I mind, and they never seemed to get the balance quite right after that.

[Mr. Brightside]

A couple of returning guests on the podcast this week.

[V.Aye.R]

There's no reason for Ferrari to be rubbish. It makes no sense. 

Other than below par drivers and shocking strategy, the rest is in their control. 

[Boo Khaki]

It's Ferrari, aside from a ten year spell, they've spent the past 45 years being rubbish. It's just what they do. The sporting division of FIAT, not known for the greatest quality control or their high-end product, why would the F1 team be any different?

Prior to June they had achieved nothing in Sportscar racing of any note since the 60's either. A few wins for customer entries in lower categories, but nothing in the big prestige classes at the sharp end. They simply couldn't compete with full-bore teams from global auto-manufacturers like Audi, Toyota, Peugeot, BMW, and even Porsche. 

The years between 1998-2008 were a Ferrari F1 anomaly, not some sort of 'norm' that they failed to reach beforehand and have fallen away from since.

The myth of Ferrari is that they build amazing, technologically astounding  road cars. It's not true. It was especially not true in the 'glory days' of the 60's, 70's, and 80's. Their cars were unreliable, suffered from awful build quality, rarely performed in road conditions to anywhere close to the 'factory' specs, and were just as awkward, uncomfortable, and inconvenient to use as 'comedy' Italian marques like Lambo, Maserati, Alfa and such.

The Ferrari brand is hugely over-romanticised because of the mystique and artificially created exclusivity. The reality has never matched the hype, at least not since motor racing moved beyond portly gentleman drivers in their 50's stopping for a fag and brandy break in the pits.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[Sarto Mutiny]

4 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

It's Ferrari, aside from a ten year spell, they've spent the past 45 years being rubbish. It's just what they do. The sporting division of FIAT, not known for the greatest quality control or their high-end product, why would the F1 team be any different?

Prior to June they had achieved nothing in Sportscar racing of any note since the 60's either. A few wins for customer entries in lower categories, but nothing in the big prestige classes at the sharp end. They simply couldn't compete with full-bore teams from global auto-manufacturers like Audi, Toyota, Peugeot, BMW, and even Porsche. 

The years between 1998-2008 were a Ferrari F1 anomaly, not some sort of 'norm' that they failed to reach beforehand and have fallen away from since.

The myth of Ferrari is that they build amazing, technologically astounding  road cars. It's not true. It was especially not true in the 'glory days' of the 60's, 70's, and 80's. Their cars were unreliable, suffered from awful build quality, rarely performed in road conditions to anywhere close to the 'factory' specs, and were just as awkward, uncomfortable, and inconvenient to use as 'comedy' Italian marques like Lambo, Maserati, Alfa and such.

The Ferrari brand is hugely over-romanticised because of the mystique and artificially created exclusivity. The reality has never matched the hype, at least not since motor racing moved beyond portly gentleman drivers in their 50's stopping for a fag and brandy break in the pits.

True. Ferrari are a wonderful romantic ideal, but success is the exception for them, not the norm. Take away the Schumacher years, and to a lesser extent the Lauda ones, and there is not much left.

[V.Aye.R]

I suppose its the definition of rubbish. 

With the resources (ignore cost cap years) and infrastructure they have I'd expect them to be on the podium multiple times a year. They're miles off that. 

[Boo Khaki]

3 hours ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

True. Ferrari are a wonderful romantic ideal, but success is the exception for them, not the norm. Take away the Schumacher years, and to a lesser extent the Lauda ones, and there is not much left.

The infamous Lauda 'it's a piece of shit' episode sums them up. They live in this bizarre bubble where a Ferrari car will be fast and effective simply because it's a Ferrari. It takes someone with the force of personality of a Lauda or a Schumacher to disabuse them of this delusion and wake them the hell up. Without it they just meander along in their own wee world. They were a shambles in the Villeneuve era, which is why I always laugh at how that is romanticised, because in so many ways he genuinely was the perfect match for Ferrari. Michele Alboreto was totally wasted by them, Mansell couldn't do anything in a middling car, and it wasn't until  notorious 'arsehole' Prost arrived that they actually looked like a legit contender again, for all of one season!. They're a rudderless ship when they lack an 'outside' force channelling their efforts, and right now there isn't anyone in the team, or likely to become available, that has the sheer charisma and force of will to make them dance to their tune and still cope with all the febrile nonsense that is part and parcel of Ferrari. All of the younger drivers are nothing more than media-trained drones, Alonso is too old and probably completely cynical of all things Ferrari anyway, Hamilton is way past his best and has always been a passenger rather than a leader, and I genuinely think Max is such an oddball that he's probably the one driver on the grid that wouldn't even entertain the thought of driving a red car just for shits and giggles. 

[Sarto Mutiny]

1 hour ago, Boo Khaki said:

The infamous Lauda 'it's a piece of shit' episode sums them up. They live in this bizarre bubble where a Ferrari car will be fast and effective simply because it's a Ferrari. It takes someone with the force of personality of a Lauda or a Schumacher to disabuse them of this delusion and wake them the hell up. Without it they just meander along in their own wee world. They were a shambles in the Villeneuve era, which is why I always laugh at how that is romanticised, because in so many ways he genuinely was the perfect match for Ferrari. Michele Alboreto was totally wasted by them, Mansell couldn't do anything in a middling car, and it wasn't until  notorious 'arsehole' Prost arrived that they actually looked like a legit contender again, for all of one season!. They're a rudderless ship when they lack an 'outside' force channelling their efforts, and right now there isn't anyone in the team, or likely to become available, that has the sheer charisma and force of will to make them dance to their tune and still cope with all the febrile nonsense that is part and parcel of Ferrari. All of the younger drivers are nothing more than media-trained drones, Alonso is too old and probably completely cynical of all things Ferrari anyway, Hamilton is way past his best and has always been a passenger rather than a leader, and I genuinely think Max is such an oddball that he's probably the one driver on the grid that wouldn't even entertain the thought of driving a red car just for shits and giggles. 

Enzo Ferrari always saw drivers as disposable, and as much as they needed strong drivers to direct them, he was never keen on those. I think that mentality still persists today. You get a guy like Leclerc who is talented, but seems happy just to be at Ferrari and won't rock the boat too much. The ideal Ferrari driver in so many ways.

[Boo Khaki]

Leclerc is in severe danger of becoming another Alesi, if he hasn't gone past the point of no return already. All the talent in the world, but never in the right place to exploit it, and anything that can possibly go wrong will, and more often than not, does. 

[Sarto Mutiny]

47 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Leclerc is in severe danger of becoming another Alesi, if he hasn't gone past the point of no return already. All the talent in the world, but never in the right place to exploit it, and anything that can possibly go wrong will, and more often than not, does. 

At least he has won more than one race, but that's a good comparison 

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

It can't help Ferrari that so much of F1 is based within a small area of England. I think only them , Alfa Romeo and Alpha Tauri aren't based in England?