stepek 4 tellys Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Ok , petal ....[emoji106]That's the style! [emoji16] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G51 Red Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 2 hours ago, stepek 4 tellys said: That's the style! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ye Olde Hamiltonian Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) On 26/02/2020 at 15:54, stepek 4 tellys said: On 26/02/2020 at 15:11, accies1874 said: We've had under 30 wins from our last 142 league matches (this season so far + the three prior to that), haven't won back-to-back league games in what'll end up being over two years, haven't avoided a relegation battle or finished above 10th since our first season in the Premiership, have set a record-low points total for avoiding the relegation play-off, and haven't put together any decent cup run. The only reason staying up last year was fun was because we had a new manager and were told how stupid we were for wanting Canning out. The end of the 17/18 season was when I realised that simply surving had become boring. We're an existential crisis of a club. I know the Championship will be miserable if we do a Thistle and even more so if we get stuck there and do a Falkirk, but there's no enjoyment left for us in the Premiership if we continue doing what we've always done. Then again, what will our aim be when we do go down? Do what Falkirk did for years (and Ayr might be like now) and constantly challenge for promotion but not get it? We don't want to be in the Premiership when we're in it, but that'll be our main objective when we're not. Again, existential crisis. So, what is your point exactly? It's the lesser of two evils, watch us struggle in the Premiership or slog away in the Championship hoping to get back up and then struggle to stay there. I know which I'd choose. Nothing is going to change approach wise under this current regime so your other choice is give up supporting the team. I've watched us play in the lower leagues for years and it was soul destroying at times, give me our current status any day of the week. I have watched Accies for 43 years, most of them in The Championship with lengthy spells in the Seaside Leagues and have no great desire to go back there. A change of Manager,decent signings and we could easily do a Livingston.Go down and we are down for years and any half decent players will be off and once the novelty wears off then crowds will go down again. We were down to 500 at times pre John Lambie and it will be back to that.Only way to try and grow the club is in the top League-no matter how hard it is. Edited February 27, 2020 by Ye Olde Hamiltonian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CambieBud Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 An entire league set up to serve 2 teams.........Spot on. Since the top league has been reduced in the last 40 years, it is no surprise that the gap between the bigots and the rest has gradually increased. Every club with the possible exception of Aberdeen has been forced to sign journeymen on 1 year contracts, as all are in fear of relegation. Fans are ignored and get sick of playing the same sides up to 7 times a season, including both cups and replay. All so Sky and BT can show 4 bigotfests every year. The TV deals are killing the game.! They don’t even pretend to be interested in anyone else but those two. Get the league expanded to save the game 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 I've seen two people suggest this above, but in what fantasyland are most Premiership clubs signing players on one-year contracts? There are plenty of players at all clubs getting contracts much longer than that - the guys on the one year contracts tend to be the older guys or the squad player gambles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Pub League Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 8 hours ago, Ye Olde Hamiltonian said: I have watched Accies for 43 years, most of them in The Championship with lengthy spells in the Seaside Leagues and have no great desire to go back there. Yer obviously going senile then, as in the last 43 years Hamilton have spent the grand sum of 6 years in the Seaside Leagues 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Don’t agree that expanding the league is the way to save it at all. A 16 or 18 team league will mean that there will be dead rubbers galore from December onwards. Other leagues such as in The Netherlands deal with the 'problem' of dead rubber fixtures through a combination of: i) having extensive play-offs to determine European qualification, promotion and relegation, and just as importantly ii) focusing on developing young prospects/sellable assets in the lower pressure environment created by a larger league, rather than chucking together the next bunch of 'experienced' jobbers to see them through the campaign without the existential threat of being relegated That's an exaggeration of course - Dutch and other European leagues all have their own, clowncar outfits doing things wrong as well - but I think the general point stands that the Scottish obsession with 'meaningful games' is not necessarily beneficial to the interests of individual clubs nor the standard of the game as a whole. It's quite possible to have a larger league that still provides the majority of teams with something to play for at the business end of the campaign, without being so ridiculously cut-throat an exercise as playing in either of the top two divisions right now. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CambieBud Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 I've seen two people suggest this above, but in what fantasyland are most Premiership clubs signing players on one-year contracts? There are plenty of players at all clubs getting contracts much longer than that - the guys on the one year contracts tend to be the older guys or the squad player gambles.The point is to that half the league spend money on short term deals, particularly in January, to try and ensure safety. Most clubs are cash strapped and waste money on journeymen rather than risk young up and coming talent. A bigger league would offer the opportunity for clubs to take more of a punt on their own developing talent. I take you point but frankly, as an old guy who remembers the pre SPL days, I find a lot of the repetition of fixtures today boring. Football sold out to TV and in a small nation like ours, fans lost out in order to pander to them. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Of course this idea that the top league is full of teams playing ‘experienced jobbers,’ and not giving youth a chance is a myth. If young players are good enough, the vast majority of teams will play them. ‘Good enough’ for what task? The vast majority of teams will not throw a stack of young players into a relegation dogfight because the concept of ‘experience’ becomes more highly prized in that situation. And other managers simply don’t want to expose players to that degree of pressure too soon in their career. So the logical outcome of pitching half a league into a relegation dogfight every season for the sake of ‘competitive matches’ is more dung journeymen stinking out the league, more short term fixes to crap sides and less long term transfer and team selection policies all round. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo-rocker Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) Playing teams three/four times a season bores me senseless. At least when we're relegated, we'll get some cracking away days and a change of scenery. The 'meaningless games' thing is a load of hogwash. Try telling fans of teams in the lower English leagues with 24 that their games are meaningless. Edited February 28, 2020 by the jambo-rocker 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coventry Saint Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 hours ago, virginton said: Other leagues such as in The Netherlands deal with the 'problem' of dead rubber fixtures through a combination of: i) having extensive play-offs to determine European qualification, promotion and relegation, and just as importantly ii) focusing on developing young prospects/sellable assets in the lower pressure environment created by a larger league, rather than chucking together the next bunch of 'experienced' jobbers to see them through the campaign without the existential threat of being relegated That's an exaggeration of course - Dutch and other European leagues all have their own, clowncar outfits doing things wrong as well - but I think the general point stands that the Scottish obsession with 'meaningful games' is not necessarily beneficial to the interests of individual clubs nor the standard of the game as a whole. It's quite possible to have a larger league that still provides the majority of teams with something to play for at the business end of the campaign, without being so ridiculously cut-throat an exercise as playing in either of the top two divisions right now. 2 hours ago, virginton said: ‘Good enough’ for what task? The vast majority of teams will not throw a stack of young players into a relegation dogfight because the concept of ‘experience’ becomes more highly prized in that situation. And other managers simply don’t want to expose players to that degree of pressure too soon in their career. So the logical outcome of pitching half a league into a relegation dogfight every season for the sake of ‘competitive matches’ is more dung journeymen stinking out the league, more short term fixes to crap sides and less long term transfer and team selection policies all round. ^^^ The guy speaks a lot of sense when he's not in troll mode, tbf. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbuddy2 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 3 hours ago, ali_91 said: Of course this idea that the top league is full of teams playing ‘experienced jobbers,’ and not giving youth a chance is a myth. If young players are good enough, the vast majority of teams will play them. I’m not interested in sitting watching glorified friendlies from Christmas onwards so that I get to see players destined for the seaside leagues get an opportunity to strut their stuff in the Premiership. Every league, including the much lauded English Premiership, have games with little to play for other than points, money from league position and pride. They are all larger than our top league yet we have the split that I believe only one other country applies. Similarly, most top leagues will provide a small number of clubs able to win it. There are exceptions such as Leicester and Kaiserslautern but rare as hen's teeth. Fans here are bored with playing each other at least 3-4times a season. Sadly, nothing will change as turkeys won't vote for Christmas when it's all about finance and survival. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 ‘Good enough’ for what task? The vast majority of teams will not throw a stack of young players into a relegation dogfight because the concept of ‘experience’ becomes more highly prized in that situation. And other managers simply don’t want to expose players to that degree of pressure too soon in their career. So the logical outcome of pitching half a league into a relegation dogfight every season for the sake of ‘competitive matches’ is more dung journeymen stinking out the league, more short term fixes to crap sides and less long term transfer and team selection policies all round. This is true. If you aren’t an established team, you also go to the game knowing your team is going to try and shitfest its way to a 1-0 or 2-1 win, and if not they’ll be thankful for a point. The disparity of playing budgets and what have you makes the top flight really not much fun if you don’t have a derby game. The jump between the Championship and the Premiership is absolutely massive. While expanding the league would do something to address that, it’d just make the gap between the top four and the bottom four even bigger. Is one better than the other? I genuinely don’t know. As things stand, every team from Hibs down has at least two or three of the battle tested usual faces who really contribute very little to the overall game, and who would otherwise be put out to pasture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 League expansion is always a tricky one as there is obviously no way of guaranteeing, especially in the batshit world of Scottish football, that the likely benefits would come to pass. Add in the relatively low number of full time clubs and there's the potential for a ring fencing of the top league by proxy. Not to say that would be much different from the status quo. The less meaningful games argument is a bit of a red herring though, as less games against teams around you would surely make those more meaningful. If you have to overhaul 5 points on a team and know you won't play them again after February would that not make that game more meaningful? Less immediate pressure of relegation would also surely encourage more youngsters being properly integrated as opposed to occasionally chucked in as is the case for most teams at the moment. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Oldbuddy2 said: Every league, including the much lauded English Premiership, have games with little to play for other than points, money from league position and pride. They are all larger than our top league yet we have the split that I believe only one other country applies. Similarly, most top leagues will provide a small number of clubs able to win it. There are exceptions such as Leicester and Kaiserslautern but rare as hen's teeth. Fans here are bored with playing each other at least 3-4times a season. Sadly, nothing will change as turkeys won't vote for Christmas when it's all about finance and survival. This is absolutely not true. There are splits in 20 other UEFA leagues* apart from Scotland. In addition, many of the countries which do not have splits actually have smaller 10 team leagues where everyone plays each other 4 times. *Andorra, Armenia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Gibraltar, Greece, Israel, Northern Ireland, Poland, Romania, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Ukraine, Wales. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pet Jeden Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 No relegation for anyone this season. At the next league meeting Hearts will be proposing (seconded by Rangers) cancelling this year's league. Purely in the interests of public health, you understand. You heard it here first. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 A bigger top league is often portrayed as some kind of land of milk and honey for Scottish football, I have absolutely no idea why. Less risk of relegation so more young players being played? Due to the lack of European spots - less than Holland - to make a 16 team league vaguely interesting you’d need to have at least 3 relegation/playoff spots. Otherwise you’d have a huge dead zone in the middle of the league. As a percentage 3 teams out of 16 is 18.75% of the teams in the league facing relegation at the end of the season. 2 from 12 teams is 16.87%, so actually less chance of getting relegated in a smaller league. As has been mentioned, if a young player is good enough he will break through. The implication that Scotland is losing out on talent due to teams being too scared to play youngsters due to the threat of relegation is guff frankly. Half of Scotland’s current starting midfield - Kenny McLean and John McGinn - broke into our first team during seasons where we were battling relegation. In the last 2 seasons Cammy McPherson has went from youth team to starting every week for us and even captaining the team, both in seasons where we have faced relegation. Apart from that the obvious elephant in the room is the fact that the only Scottish match that carries any real interest outside Scotland is the Old Firm derby. Of course TV companies want four of these a year and the notion that either of those two clubs will willingly vote to decrease the amount of Old Firm matches is just pure fantasy. I think the league set up is pretty much fine just now. The split at least adds some intrigue to the mid table fight beforehand. The post split matches where everyone is playing everyone around them every week invariably leads to lots of drama and proverbial 6 pointers. It’s great fun. The one change I’d like to see is actually an increased chance of relegation. I would tweak the playoffs so 10th in top flight plays 3rd in the championship over two legs and 11th plays 2nd over two legs. The winner of those two ties playoff in a one off match at a neutral venue for a spot in the top flight. For two reasons, firstly the current playoff set up is ridiculously biased toward the top flight team - saying that as a fan of a team who has recently benefited from that bias. Secondly the team finishing 4th in a ten team league should not have a chance of promotion. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 1 hour ago, Lex said: The one change I’d like to see is actually an increased chance of relegation. I would tweak the playoffs so 10th in top flight plays 3rd in the championship over two legs and 11th plays 2nd over two legs. The winner of those two ties playoff in a one off match at a neutral venue for a spot in the top flight. For two reasons, firstly the current playoff set up is ridiculously biased toward the top flight team - saying that as a fan of a team who has recently benefited from that bias. I still dont get this argument. The Championship side finishing 2nd will play 38 games before the play off final, the Premiership side will play 38 games before the play off final. Both will play the final game before the Final on May 16/17. Wheres the advantage for the top flight side? 3rd/4th in the Championship face more games, but that's fine as that's the punishment for finishing that low down. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 I still dont get this argument. The Championship side finishing 2nd will play 38 games before the play off final, the Premiership side will play 38 games before the play off final. Both will play the final game before the Final on May 16/17. Wheres the advantage for the top flight side? 3rd/4th in the Championship face more games, but that's fine as that's the punishment for finishing that low down.You’re referring to league games. With the Challenge cup and entering a round earlier in the Scottish cup it’s more likely that Championship team will have played more games over the season. They will also have played midweek Saturday in the semi final and then midweek Saturday again the week after in the final. Plus the fact the second leg of the final is at the Premiership sides ground.It’s too weighted in the Premiership teams favour, particularly the final. That should at least be a one off game at a neutral ground even if they kept the format up to that point the same. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Lex said: You’re referring to league games. With the Challenge cup and entering a round earlier in the Scottish cup it’s more likely that Championship team will have played more games over the season. They will also have played midweek Saturday in the semi final and then midweek Saturday again the week after in the final. Plus the fact the second leg of the final is at the Premiership sides ground. It’s too weighted in the Premiership teams favour, particularly the final. That should at least be a one off game at a neutral ground even if they kept the format up to that point the same. What? You're claiming that Championship sides playing in a competition that ends in March is hindering them winning games in May? I'm fairly sure 2and place in the Championship play their Semi games on the same dates the Premiership side plays their final two league games. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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